User talk:Stephen2nd/archive 2
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Dieu et mon droit has generally been used as the motto of the British monarch since it was adopted by the English king Henry V (1413-1422). This French sentence means God and my right. The term God (h)and my right originated from swearing of the Oath procedures in courts. This motto Dieu et mon droit - beneath the Royal Coat of Arms, is displayed above all magistrates and judges in all Magistrates, Crown and County Courts throughout England and Wales. The term God and my right, refers to the Oath sworn by all jurors, witnesses and accused during procedings. The Court Usher compels the subject to place their left hand upon the Bible [representing God] and to raise their right hand. They then state the oath; “I swear by almighty God.....” Accordingly I/we all swear on oath by “God (h)and my right”. This oath “god and my right” is in accordance with Kings Statute law of Magna Carta: “Know that before God.” [61] “We give public and free permission “to take the oath” …”we will compel” any of our subjects who are unwilling to take it to “swear it at our command.” Both we and the Barons have “sworn”…”without deceit”…”Witness” …”Given by our hand”… King John refers to the Dieu et mon droit as being the Motto of the king in the opening line of Magna Carta; John, by the grace of “God King of England,” in the translation from Latin, there is no comma between the word God and King of England. As in the coronations of all monarchs, in Queens Elizabeth II Coronation oath, she makes her solemn oath in the sight of all the people by “laying her right hand upon the Bible saying: So help me God.” This procedure of using the Bible and raising the right hand, as an international procedure, is exampled in the swearing of the oath, in inaugurations of every Presedent of the United States of America.
I just removed the quotes and some other parts of the argument that "Dieu et mon Droit" derives from oath taking. I left the basic proposition with a fact tag. If the basic proposition is not given serious, verifiable sourcing by Friday, 25 April, I will remove it. -Rrius (talk) 21:35, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
The term "God (h)and my right" originated from procedure for swearing oaths in courts.[citation needed] The motto is included in the Royal Coat of Arms. The Arms, in turn, are displayed above magistrates and judges in all Magistrates, Crown and County Courts throughout England and Wales. The term God and my right, refers to the Oath sworn by all jurors, witnesses and accused during proceedings. The Court Usher compels the subject to place their left hand upon the Bible [representing God] and to raise their right hand. They then state the oath; “I swear by almighty God...”. The formulation “God and my right” is in accordance with King's Statute law of Magna Carta.[citation needed]
The Magna Carta, which many believe is the foundation of both the law, and of rights, is the earliest known legal document to actually state the relevant phrases; to take the oath; swear it at our command; sworn; without deceit; Witness, and also; Given by our hand. [Magna Carta BL]: “The translation sets out to convey the sense rather than the precise wording of the original Latin.” Further evolutions may also seem relevant in this context: Freedom of the Churches elections - a right reckoned to be of the greatest necessity and importance to it; in elections today, we still put a C13th “X” rather than write our name? That the ‘English Church’ be free and have its rights undiminished – Church of England? The term given by our hand, has many historical, royal, political and modern meanings, [Brockhaus]: C19th Nazi salute: Installation and coronation of German kings with "Heil". Hitler and Himmler regarded Nazi salute as identical with the rendering of a judicial oath. Since 1945, this salute and the judicial oath are now forbidden by law in Germany. Thus witnesses and accused, cannot commit perjury, regardless of what they say during a trial.
NB: Sensus verborum est anima legis: Dieu et mon Droit: Scire debes cum quo contrahis. Stephen2nd (talk) 23:08, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
[NB: Withdrew all God and my Right oath submissions]
Dieu et mon droit: Is the Royal Arms motto of the United Kingdom as used in England [1]. Its letters form four French words with the English translation of: God and my Right. This motto appears beneath the Royal Arms achievement, contained in a compartment called the scroll. [2] Most depictions of the Royal Arms show the rampant lion supporter with its bottom paws on this compartment upon the letters ‘Dieu et’, with the lions front paws holding the compartment of the motto of the Order of the Garter between the letters ‘Honi soit’ - equally the rampant Dragon; termed the “Red Dragon of Cadwaladr” [3]or the Unicorn opposite the lion, show its feet or hooves on the ‘mon droit’ - equally with their front feet or hooves holding the Garter between the letters ‘Y pense’.
The motto was first used with the Red Dragon supporter by the Plantagenet King Richard I, [4] who used a dragon standard during the Crusades. [5] The motto was in constant use by the House of Lancaster under King Henry VI, [6] until the House of Tudor; Queen Mary who used the motto Veritas temporis filia and Queen Elizabeth I who used Semper eadem and also changed the colour of her Dragons to gold. [7] The House of Stuart; King James VI of Scotland as James I of England, sometimes used Beati pacifici, at which time the Dragon supporter was permanently replaced by a Unicorn, and King William III also used the motto Je main tiendrai le droit. [8] The Royal Arms of King Charles I can be seen above the entrance of the Kings Manor, St. Leonards Place, York, near to York Minster. Kings Henry VIII and Charles II are recorded to have stayed at the Kings Manor, as did King Charles I in 1633 and 1639. Depicting a first use of his fathers Unicorn supporter, it is noteworthy that this Royal motto; Dieu et mon droit, has the {N} of the MON curiously carved in reverse. [9] This may allude to the curious upside-down gold dragon head[10] or Pendragon, projecting from the west Nave wall inside York Minster; directly opposite the C14th arms of Stephen Mauley, among other notable peers, Kings and Knights of the Garter.[11]
The earliest evidence of a ‘dragon standing on a Mon’ can be traced back to 51ad, to the ancient British Kings and Queens of the Pre-Iceni; Celtic Brigantes tribes, whose northern kingdom was the largest in all Britain, and who also founded Eboracum. (York) The origin of the scroll, as a compartment for a motto, may be traced back to Edgar (959-975); King of the English. The Lion can be traced back to the Dukes of Normandy and the armorial Unicorn can be traced back to Wales. [unfinished pending references]
(Reverted by Rrius; This is about the motto, not the supporters on the arms.. (TW))
[Rrius to Indefatigable:” Monarchist. I can't be neutral on this”;] Dieu et mon droit seems not to be followed by too many editors, so I am coming to you about an issue due to your activity at Talk:Royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom. I have been reverting edits by Stephen2nd at Dieu et mon droit. His first presented a barely intelligible argument positing that the motto originated with oath-swearing ceremonies in English courts. As proof, he presented irrelevant quotations. His second major edit was an irrelevant (and incomplete) history of dragon supporters in the English arms. I see this turning into, if not an edit war, at least some kind of conflict. For that reason, I would appreciate your double checking my reverts (as you have more Wikipedia experience) and, if I'm in the right, watching the article and perhaps giving Stephen2nd constructive advice. If you can't help, I'd appreciate any suggestions you have. -Rrius (talk) 01:36, 24 April 2008.
Like Rrius, I encourage you to read "Wikipedia:No original research", especially the section "Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position" before continuing to contribute to this article. Even if individual facts are verifiable, the conclusion that they lead you to cannot be included in the article unless it has been verifiably published by a reliable source.
“A Message from his Majesty the King" :
"To all serving in my Forces by sea or land, or in the air, and indeed, to all my people engaged in the defence of the Realm, I commend the reading of this book. For centuries the Bible has been a wholesome and strengthening influence in our national life, and it behoves us in these momentous days to turn with renewed faith to this Divine source of comfort and inspiration.” George VI: (father of Queen Elizabeth.) 15th September 1939. Ref: Holy Bible: Active Service Edition. King James Version of the Holy Bible:
“Great and manifold were the blessings, most dread Sovereign, which Almighty God, the father of all mercies, bestowed upon us the people of England, when first he sent your Majesties Royal Person to rule and reign over us... (e.g.: Divine right of kings.) …we may rest secure and supported within the truth and innocency of a good conscience, which will ever give countenance to honest and Christian endeavours against bitter censures and uncharitable imputations.”Stephen2nd (talk) 14:57, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
