Talk:Steven Hassan/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Removed material

Gossipy material removed from article

Church members recall him as smart but self-involved. Marty Eisenberg reports :that Steve used to borrow his toothbrush without asking. Hassan styles himself a :high-level leader of the church, but church officials report that he was only the :assistant leader of one small congregation for less than a year.
I think the following sentence is relevant for his profession and should be re-added "Hassan styles himself a :high-level leader of the church, but church officials report that he was only the :assistant leader of one small congregation for less than a year." Andries 18:43, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, I had two minds about that one. May as well stay. Bacchiad 19:39, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I did a copy edit of this page, as it seemed biased against the subject; in fact, almost contemptuous. Biographical info that would normally be in the intro had been buried, and there were unreferenced claims that his methods are not supported by the APA or the courts, which I deleted. If anyone re-inserts them, please find reputable references. Apart from that, I mostly changed the order. SlimVirgin 00:50, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

Hassan's position

Hi Ed, could I have a citation please for the quote from the Church, and for the statement that the remark is typical of Hassan's deceptive style of communication? Paragraph below. Many thanks, SlimVirgin 22:52, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

Hassan says that he "ultimately rose to the rank of Assistant Director of the Unification Church at National Headquarters". A spokesman for the church insists that Steve was only the assistant director of the New York congregation, not of the national organization and adds that such an ambiguous remark is typical of Mr. Hassan's deceptive style of communication.

What was he an assistant director of?

The position of "assistant director" in the Unification Church has always referred to a local "center". Perhaps this breakdown will help.

  • US - led by Church President and Vice Presidents
    • US is divided into regions, usually spanning several states.
  • Region - led by Regional Director
  • State or District - led by a Director State Leader or District Leader
  • Center (a local church) - led by a Director (or Center Director)

Adding to the confusion, the church's National HQ at 4 West 43rd Street also housed the Regional HQ for New York, as well as the local New York Church. For about a month, Steve was the Assistant Director of that local church center. I doubt if he thinks that he was of regional or higher rank.

I'm quite sure that his online biography is not claiming that he was the "Assistant Director of the Unification Church of America" - for two reasons:

  1. That would have made his title "Vice President", and
  2. However deceptive Steve has been, I've never caught him telling an outright lie.

But the following words form his online biogrphay are troubling, or ambiguous at best:

  • ultimately rose to the rank of Assistant Director of the Unification Church at National Headquarters.

That certainly sounds like a claim to be a national level leader. Perhaps Steve himself will log on some day and clarify this. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 23:02, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for that clarification, Ed. However, we do need a citation for: "A spokesman for the church insists that Steve was only the assistant director of the New York congregation, not of the national organization and adds that such an ambiguous remark is typical of Mr. Hassan's deceptive style of communication." Best, SlimVirgin 23:26, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
Well, since *I* am that spokesman ... Let's just leave his quote - with no church rebuttal, until I can check with someone more quotable than myself (er, about the rank thing). And let's leave out the "typical ... deceptive" thing entirely - that's just me, speaking unofficially! -- Uncle Ed (talk) 15:05, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)
I didn't realize you were with the Church, Ed. Bear in mind that anything we publish in terms of quotes or opinions has to be attributed to a publication, and if it's at all controversial, we'll need an actual quote. Best, SlimVirgin 16:23, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

External Links

I followed the link about refuting accusations of deprogramming and found this confession of deprogramming:

I was involved in about a dozen deprogrammings of members of the Moon cult in 1976-77.

I don't understand how admittiing to involvement in deprogramming constitutes a "refutation" of accusations of deprogramming. So I suggest a rewording of the link text.

How about just using the page title from Steve's web site. "Let him speak for himself", is what I always say. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 15:41, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Blurred distinctions

I found a web site that described Hassan as having been a "high-ranking leader" in the Unification Church (but then my browser crashed; I can look it later if needed). I guess it depends on what you'd call a high rank. If the church had, say, a thousand members in the US when Steve was in the church (early to mid-70s), and he had 200 of them under his command, I'd certainly call that "high-ranking".

But in 27 years of church membership I can't recall ever meeting any member who identified Steve as having been their leader. It must have been a very small group he was in charge of - or maybe I just don't get around as much as I'd like to think?

I guess he may have been temporarily in charge of 10 to 30 members during his one month of leadership - at a time when the building at 4 West 43rd Street was being established as a headquarters. The best person to ask would surely be Aidan Barry, who *was* the local church leader at the time. (When Aidan Barry became the regional leader for UC of New England, did that make him a high-ranking leader?) I'd call Steve Hassan's leadership level - relative to the American UC - "mid-level" to "low-level".

I can't for the life of me figure out why Hassan or his supporters make such a big deal of how "high" he had risen in the ranks (did you know he personally spoke with Rev. Moon once?) Could it be to prove that he "penetrated deep into the heart of the mysterious elusive organization"?

But there are no elusive mysteries to the UC. We'll tell all, to anyone who will stand still long enough to listen! Opponents (and their media allies) make it sound like there's some secret, high-power doctrine only revealed to trusted insiders. <sad half-smile> The only "secret" is that we believe Rev. Moon is the Messiah - but everyone already knows that ...

I think rather that the whole "they are keeping secrets" thing is a ploy used by opponents to trick potential inquirers from making any effort to learn about the church (other than from its dedicated enemies, of course).

The scary "don't talk to them or they'll such you in" thing generates fear and dissuades people from finding out for themselves. (Ironically, Hassans "strategic intervention" model says the church exploits phobias to retain members, while "anti-cult" propaganda rather obviously does the same thing in reverse.

Wouldn't it be nice if some objective, honest, straightforward group appeared which refused to deal in fear at all? Instead of exploiting fear to keep people from making an "informed choice"?

[Well, I obviously have a lot of unexpressed feelings about the anti-cult crusaders...] -- Uncle Ed (talk) 19:08, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Fraser Report

The Steven Hassan article links to an oddly named page concerning a document I've always called the Fraser Report. This article in turn links to an edited copy of that report at Mr. Hassan's web site. He excerpted pages 311-392 and gave it his own page header:

"Investigation of Korean-American Relations (Moonies, aka Unification Church)"

I will check my own copy of that report, or an official government web site, to confirm my suspicion that Steve tacked on the Moonies, aka Unification Church part himself.

Also, I recall that the report itself contains an important (but buried) sentence in which it in effect takes back all the accusation it makes. Quoting from memory:

(paraphrase) We were unable to find any real proof to substantiate any of these charges.

The report has been used as "evidence" that the Unification Church isn't really a church, but (variously):

  • a front for Moon's business schemes to enrich himself
  • a plot to take over the world by force and establish a dictatorship devoid of religious freedom (like Iran under Khomeini or Afghanistan under the Taliban)

Now that I'm cleaning up the Steve Hassan page, I guess I should tidy up this thing, too. It should all be connected properly, and all written from the Neutral Point of View. "This side this A, that side says B." You know. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 16:07, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Steve's bio

A lot of the material seems copied nearly verbatim from another web site:

Deceptively recruited into the Moon organization at the age of nineteen while a student at Queens College, Hassan spent twenty-seven months recruiting and indoctrinating new members, fundraising, political campaigning and personally meeting with Sun Myung Moon during numerous leadership sessions. Mr. Hassan ultimately rose to the rank of Assistant Director of the Unification Church at National Headquarters. Following a serious automobile accident, he was helped by several former members at his parent's request. Once he realized the insidious nature of the organization, he authorized police officials to take possession of his personal belongings which included a massive set of private speeches documenting Moon's secret plan to "take over the world." During the 1977-78 Congressional Subcommittee Investigation into South Korean C.I.A. activities in the United States, he consulted as an expert witness. In 1979, following the Jonestown tragedy, Mr. Hassan founded EX-MOON Inc., a non-profit educational organization composed of over four hundred former members of the Moon group. [1]

Maybe we should cite them, or even quote them. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 18:22, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, we should definitely do one or the other if that has been directly lifted. Well spotted. SlimVirgin 18:36, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Why doesn't the article start by saying that he is an anti-cult acivist? See also the article Opposition to cults and new religious movements that I created today. Andries 20:32, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I suggest adding a line about his wife's death? Something like: His wife Aureet Bar-Yam died in 1991 after falling through ice while trying to save her dog.

[2] -- Knverma

Wow, that's really sad. I'm guessing this was from The Boston Globe? Smeelgova 15:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC).
Not sure. Also the above article says "ex-husband". Because she is dead, or did they divorce? I remember Hassan talking about Aureet in Combatting Cult Mind Control. I will check. -- Knverma 15:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, thanks. Secondary reputable sources for confirmation are always best. Smeelgova 15:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC).
The acknowledgments section of the book has the following paragraph:
"Special acknowledgments go to Aureet Bar-Yam, my wife, who for more than seven years put up with the incredible demands that my work has required. She died in a tragic accident trying to rescue our dog. She will be sorely missed and always remembered for her love, talent, intelligence, and willingness to help others. Her parents, Drs. Zvi and Miriam Bar-Yam, have been a source of much love, inspiration, and help in ways too numerous to recount."
Pages 32-33 have the following paragraph:
"In 1980, I attended a seminar by Richard Bandler on hypnosis that was based on a model he and John Grinder had developed, called Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP). I was impressed by what I learned, because it gave me a handle on techniques of mind control and how to combat them. I spent nearly two years studying NLP with everyone involved in its formulation and presentation. At one point I moved to Santa-Cruz, California, to undergo an apprenticeship with John Grinder. By this time, too, I had fallen in love and gotten married. I moved back to Massachusetts when my wife, Aureet, was given a scholarship to work for her Master's degree at Harvard.".
So I guess the above line I suggested can be safely added to the article, with the word "their" in place of the crossed out text. -- Knverma 20:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Done. Also, Peter S. Canellos seems to work for The Boston Globe [3] (I was unaware of newspapers with the name "The Globe", and the fact that there are more than one). -- Knverma 23:17, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Involvement in other deprogammings

The truth is that I was involved in about a dozen deprogrammings of members of the Moon cult in 1976-77. For one year only! With members of the Moon cult only. Some of them were legal conservatorships. Others were not. Never did I ever abduct, restrain, hit or threaten anybody. I did not and do not like the deprogramming method and stopped doing them in 1977! I have spoken out publicly against forcible deprogrammings since 1980.

He leaves out his involvement with the kidnapping of Lorne Fyvie in the early 1980s. I personally met Lorne's sister before the kidnapping and talked with Lorne afterwards. She said Steve Hassan was present. However, the deprogramming was not "successful" and they let her go on condition that she agreed not to sue them. (Not that an agreement signed under duress is binding....) -- Uncle Ed (talk) 16:11, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. Just to be fair, it's possible Steve actually mediated in this encounter and got the deprogrammers to back off. I'll have to ask him. (For now, let's leave this out of the article, of course).

Number of ex-members

Steve (and/or his supporters) like to harp on how many ex-members joined his group:

Mr. Hassan founded EX-MOON Inc., a non-profit educational organization composed of over four hundred former members of the Moon group.

A former President of the Unification Church of America estimates the US ex-member population at 90,000. This means Steve Hassan's group has about 0.5% of the ex-members - a tiny fraction.

Numbers are significant, because of the "mind control" claims of deprogrammers: you're brainwashed to keep you from leaving. Well, most ex-members left of their own accord: they simply dropped out. It is chiefly those who were "deprogrammed" who level mind contrel charges. They rest said that they simply decided it wasn't for them. (Merge this comment into mind control). -- Uncle Ed (talk) 16:16, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

Deprogramming

  1. What's his real position on it?
  2. Does he still do it?
  3. Is he using the standard definition of deprogramming or his own special definition?

Steve says he stopped "deprogramming" after one year, but Unification Church lawyer Andy Bacus says he kept doing it. Has he continued to do the same thing but under a different name, or has he really changed? Perhaps this depends on various definitions of deprogramming.

Deprogramming means persuading a cult recruit that he had been a victim of mind control and getting him to agree to leave the cult.

  • involuntary deprogramming - same as above, but you kidnap the victim and (a) keep him incommunicado and (b) keep him from leaving (with locked doors and/or physical force.
  • exit counseling - same as above, without the kidnapping or imprisonment.

If I recall correctly, an "intervention" is also set up by surprise. Interventionists are cautioned not to tell the cult recruit that you're planning to "exit counsel" him, because he'll tip off his cult leaders, and they'll be sure to say "No, don't go to that!"

I'd like to straighten out the confusion or deception about the terminology here.

Also, I'd like to clarify how much force and/or deception is used, in both forcible deprogramming and "voluntary" exit counseling. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 14:14, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

Ed, I only know what I read from Steve Hassan himself. Unfortunately I do not have independent verification. He states that exit counseling is voluntary. I have no personal experience, neither with deprogramming nor with exit counseling, both of which are very rare here in the Netherlands so I do not very much trust myself on this subject. Andries 15:51, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Andries. I also found out about an agreement between Dan Fefferman and Steve Hassan. Steve sent a letter voicing his opposition to forcible deprogramming to Japan; in exchange for Dan informing the Unification community that Steve only does voluntary exit counseling since 1977. (Not that this cuts any ice with Andrew Bacus, who still doesn't like Steve or what he does.)

Maybe we can set up a definitions of deprogramming or definitions of brainwashing page to distinguish between the various terms:

Frankly, they all look pretty similar to me. How about merging them into one or two articles? -- Uncle Ed (talk) 21:34, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

Ed and Adries, could you show me how I can get a transcipt or primary documentation of his voicing opposition to the deprogramming problem in Japan? I was doing some independent research on this when I found comments about this issue. Thanks

Bias

I don't think this is NPOV. This looks more like personal attacks. I'm not making any arguments for or against his use of deprogramming methods, I'm just stating that this is a biased paper. Druminor, April 18, 2005

Explanation for my revert of User:Petrus4

Petrus, I reverted your edits because they weren't encyclopedic or written in the usual WP style. For example, we don't start articles with an "overview" header. More importantly, in your criticism section, you inserted quotes with no citations. If you're a new editor, it might be helpful if you'd read our core policies: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:Cite sources. Citing independent, credible sources for your edits is particularly important for a controversial figure, and should always be done when quoting. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 08:15, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, Petrus, it looks like the criticism section was written by someone else. My apologies - I didn't look carefully enough. I've done a copy edit and created some headers. Let me know if you disagree with the layout. I'm also taking the POV tag off the page, as there doesn't seem to have been any recent editing or discussion. If anyone disagrees, by all means replace it. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:53, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

Two paragraphs removed

I removed the paragraphs below: the first one because it's unclear what it means, or why Engler is someone we should be quoting (who is he, and what's his expertise?), and there's no citation; and the second one, because it talk about what Brown says Hassan says (which is awkward) and again, there's no citation. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:38, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

Another critic is John Engler of the Barnabas Ministry in Denver, Colorado. Engler was formerly a member of the International Churches of Christ (ICC), which has been accused of being a cult by several sources, but in May 2004, he withdrew his ministry from affiliation with the ICC. [4] Previously, in 2000, while still a member of the Unification Church, Engler disputed Hassan's statements that the Lifton criteria applied to the ICC and alleges instead that these criteria would be applicable to the exit counseling methods he describes in his first book "Combatting Cult Mind Control".

Human rights activist and former anti-cult activist Rev. J. B. Brown II states that even if Hassan does not perform deprogrammings, he does suggest that a "forcible intervention" be held as a last resort according to his 1988 book Comabtting Cult Mind Control (Hassan, Combatting ,114). Brown also stated that it is odd that Hassan would suggest such a thing when he says on his web site that he has spoken out against deprogrammings since 1980 (www.freedomofmind.org).

Add Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP)

Greetings, I just added a paragraph regarding Hassan's early involvement with NLP. Hassan studied NLP with Bandler and Grinder in 1980. He actually started an apprenticeship with John Grinder to become an NLP trainer, but ended this early to do his own study of the NLP founding models (Milton H. Erickson, Gregory Bateson, Virgnia Satir). NLP (and the models that NLP was based on) allowed Hassan to, "analyze and create a model for the process of change that occurs when a person goes into a cult group and then successfully leaves it." (p.33, Hassan, 1990). --Comaze 03:07, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Spokesman for the church

I erred in my edit comment for this edit [5]:

I do not speak for my church officially. I was quoting the Pastor of the Unification Church of Manhattan, Bruce Grodner. I should have used his name. Sorry for the confusion. Uncle Ed 04:08, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I think you're misremembering. You admitted you were the spokesman [6] and after discussion agreed to delete the edit for that reason. [7] It's no big deal for me. I was just responding to your request for one diff where you'd inserted your own opinion into an article. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:12, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Wow, that's right. You should be an attorney! What I remembered last night was a conversation I had with Pastor Bruce Grodner. If this info should be in the article, then Grodner should be the source. And the reference should be "personal conversation with Ed Poor".
But it's still not an example of POV-pushing, is it? I didn't make the article say that Hassan is a bad guy. The article cites a UC source for that evaluation. Uncle Ed 14:53, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't want to harp on about it, but as you've asked, I would say it's an example of POV pushing, yes. You wrote of someone you personally don't like that he has a "deceptive style of communication," and had never held a position he claimed to have held. You then used yourself as the source, even though you're not a published source, and called yourself a spokesman. You also failed to add any balancing statement from Hassan about the allegation of deception. That makes the edit a violation of WP:NOR, WP:V, and WP:NPOV, our three content policies, which is why I remember it. It was a triple whammy. ;-) SlimVirgin (talk) 15:17, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Hassan's reputation and use of his website

As a casual but sometimes intensive observer of cults and the way they are represented on the web, I've often noticed that Steve Hassan's website is widely referred to as a source of authority, eg, if an organisation or movement is listed on his website, it's officially a cult. I don't know for sure, but am sceptical that he deserves this level of authority, partly at least because as reflected on the Wikipedia page on cults there is considerable disagreement about what a cult actually is, and you could for example say that the roman catholic church is a cult with some justification. In addition, as far as I can tell Hassan refuses all external dialogue on loading a movement or organisation onto his site, and once it's there it never gets removed. He also doesn't allow any open discussion on his site about the statements he makes. Given this, would people think it worth pointing out on this page that Hassan is not neccessarily the fount of all wisdom on cult definitions? I would like to add something to the effect that whilst his website is frequently used as a dictionary of cults, it should be approached with caution. I am not I hasten to add a member of more than 3 cults at any one time. :-) MarkThomas 10:41, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

If you look at his site again you'll see that he labels fews groups as cults outright. He does have a long list of "Cults, and Other Groups of Interest", with this disclaimer: The fact that these groups appear on this list does not necessarily mean they are a destructive mind control cult. They appear because we have received inquiries and have established a file on the group. So I think he encourages people to keep an open mind. -Will Beback 18:44, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
But still, he seems to set himself up as an authority figure.
I've just tried to discuss this topic a little bit in the page with some referenced material and had it covered in cite tags, whilst the rest of the (largely uncited) page is apparently fine. Can we at least open the door to a little bit of criticism of Hassan? I think the above is true, casual users of the web often see links to a "cult" ref'd on FoM as being definitive, whereas in fact it's all just at his whim that he adds something there. I quote more academic alternatives and have not attempted to de-POV the rest of the page. However, given that maybe this is a campaign of some sort to not allow critiques, perhaps we should really analyse and reconstruct this WP:BIO? I am sure there is a lot of POV in it. Comments? MarkThomas 10:43, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for engaging in discussion! I've added an "unsourced" tag to the top of the article, but making assumptions about what Hassan does or does not do on his website without backing them up with sourced citations, seems like original research to me. Yours, Smeelgova 10:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC).

In some cases, such as Re-evaluation Counselling this is seen as unfair. Some have suggested that Freedom of Mind that in many cases a single complaint, or just one external reference claiming something is a cult, is enough to have a cult page. Reader updates or discussion are not generally permitted on the site. In some cases, such as that of Christian Science, Nation of Islam, Falun Gong, Gospel Assembly Church and other religious groupings, Hassan's own political and religious views appear to be at work in labelling organisations "cults"[citation needed].

Surely you must see how this entire section requires citations in order to stay in and not be original research.

  1. This is seen as unfair. - By whom? When? How?
  2. Some have suggested that Freedom of Mind that in many cases a single complaint, or just one external reference claiming something is a cult, is enough to have a cult page. - Who has suggested this? Who is some? Are there citations that backup that one reference is all that's required on his site? Or are these personal observations?
  3. Reader updates or discussion are not generally permitted on the site. - How so? How can we back this up with citations? Is this from personal experience, or has this been officially reported on in secondary sources?
  4. In some cases, such as that of Christian Science, Nation of Islam, Falun Gong, Gospel Assembly Church and other religious groupings, Hassan's own political and religious views appear to be at work in labelling organisations "cults"[citation needed]. - In this part, there are 2 problems. First, what are Hassan's "political and religious views" ? Do we have secondary sources to back this up? And second, Hassan's "political and religious views" shouldn't really play into this section, that almost seems like a personal attack on Hassan, unless worded drastically differently.

Yours, Smeelgova 10:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC).

IMO, the whole segment after the macro should be deleted. This is clearly original "research". --Tilman 16:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Given the widespread casual citation of Hassan's site both within and outside Wikipedia, it does merit some discussion; the points I make are fair, objective and referenced in the latest version. Please do not auto-revert them without further discussion. Thanks. MarkThomas 16:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I also agree that the part in the segment "website" is original research and should be deleted. Alternatively, one should find a reliable source specifically pointing at Steve Hassan and criticizing his website. The comments made (sect vs. cult) are not new, and they are treated elsewhere; but they haven't been made specificly at his website, so its not really relevant there. --Tilman 18:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments User:Tilman, For a while there I thought I was the only one with the above POV. Glad to find out I chose the right "header" of "no original research" on that one. Yours, Smeelgova 18:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC).
For some reason, I didn't take much attention at the definition before. I saw your edits in many definitions I watch, they cleaned up everything a bit, so I took a closer look :) --Tilman 19:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

How can it be "not relevant" to his site or this page what the definition of a "cult" is exactly and how his website defines it? That's what he's famous for! I wonder if you are misconstruing motives possibly here though - I am certainly not out to defend any particular "cult". The comments in my section are very easy to check simply by going to his (referenced) site, so it seems a stretch to classify a small piece of cited comment like this as "original research". In fact I LOL'ed when I saw your comments above! :-) MarkThomas 18:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello Mark. You are welcome to provide a description of the website, as well as critiques of the website (there are many out there). What is original research is the way that it is written, i.e. attempting to explain why the site should not be considered reliable, etc. I am sure that if you apply yourself to do some research, you can find similar explanations described by reliable sources. That material would be most welcome. There is plenty of material out there that criticises Hassan and his website. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
The controversy about the word "cult" is explained in the definition of the word "cult". There is no need to discuss it in every cult related definition (e.g. in Rick Ross, Margaret Singer, whoever).
The second problem is the "original research", i.e. that a wikipedia writer (maybe you) made an analysis of his website and wrote down the result. If you didn't before, read WP:NOR, the concept isn't trivial, but it makes sense after some time. --Tilman 19:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarifications guys, I will do some research and come back with hopefully a more citable page. Tilman, I've enjoyed reading your stuff critiquing Scientology over the years. MarkThomas 19:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Duplicte wikilink

Note that

and

Link to the same page. The second one redirects to the first one. I have attempted to delete the second one severa times, but it keeps being added. I would suggest to keep the wikiling to the main article and not to the redirect. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:09, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Thank you for the clarification User:Jossi, I actually did not notice that until you pointed it out. Hopefully other editors will look here first. Yours, Smeelgova 20:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC).

Combatting Cult Mind Control

  • I have created an article on Steven Hassan's best-selling book, Combatting Cult Mind Control, published in 7 languages and in print for almost the last 20 years. If those of you are interested, further commentary on how you think the article looks would be appreciated on its talk page. Also, any edits or suggestions you might have would also be most appreciated. Thank you for your time. Yours, Smeelgova 00:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC).
The following off-topic text was removed by me from Hassan's book Combatting Cult Mind Control. The text was there off-topic because it made no relation to the book. I think if the text belongs somewhere then it is in this article.
"Hassan's critics argue that Steve Hassan uses the term "mind control" (for what they see as essentially a strong form of influence) only to justify the forcible extraction of believers from religious groups. They argue that Hassan does not merely say that fraudulent salesmanship persuaded the believers; he claims that these groups literally take away a victim's freedom of mind. For this reason an involuntary procedure must operate in order to "rescue" a "victim" from a "destructive cult", for "victims" may not realize their victimhood status and may resist rescuing."
Feel free to add it to this article if there are good sources. Andries 10:50, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • The comment "Twelve years after the last publication of Combatting Cult Mind Control..." is vague. It could be interpreted to mean the Combatting mind control is not published anymore. It is still published. I found it on Amazon. I recommend the statement be reworded to 'Twelve years after the last edition of Combatting Cult Mind Control..."

Website and critiques of Hassan

I find it troubling that any attempt to even suggest that there might be some critical approaches to Hassan's work appears to be speedily removed from this page. The most recent example (and there have been other ones previously) is the Website section, which contained cited and referenced material on the limitations of Hassan's website - this is of note, because very many other websites, including many sources used on Wikipedia, use Hassan's original referencing of a given organisation as a cult to continue that definition. However, on close examination, it does appear that his placement of a given body on the site as a "cult" is entirely at his personal discretion. He may well have a good claim to be a cult expert, but surely Wikipedia should attempt to explore this analytically? I am not, by the way, a member of any group such as Scientology that is commonly identified as a cult, so I am not raising this as part of an attempt to undermine Hassan's work, which is obviously in general valuable, just discussing this aspect of this article. I propose to re-instate the recently deleted Website section, which was properly referenced. Thanks. MarkThomas 18:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

They were off-topic. The biography of Hassan is the right place to mention criticism of Hassan and his work, but not to digress on general issues regarding the cult controversy. Andries 18:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not clear on what you are implying here Andries - are you saying that Hassan is so central to cult studies that we cannot discuss his criteria for labelling cults on the page about him, but instead it must be described elsewhere? This is quite a strained view I think. Once again, I am not proposing this be re-inserted because I am motivated to attack Hassan as a result of some cult policy. Actually, I admire the guy. But objectively his views on what constitutes a cult must be absolutely central to this page surely. MarkThomas 18:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that his views on what constitutes a cult should be in the article but this is not in the article nor was it removed by me. Feel free to add. Andries 18:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

It was. His website is precisely the main location for his identification of what constitutes a cult - it is also globally noteworthy, since it is widely picked up and referenced elsewhere as immediate "evidence" that such-and-such NRM is a "cult" and to boot - it is also a trusted source on many Wikipedia pages! Therefore deleting the Website section is doing a dis-service to other Wikipedia users who might want to read objective and referenced material on how Hassan decides on such identifications. References to other sources for comparison were given in the article. Unless anyone with slightly more objective arguments than the above objects, I will restore the deletion. Thanks. MarkThomas 18:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Where was it? I did not find it. See also Destructive cult that does give such a view voiced by Hassan. I prefer you copy information from that article instead of restoring off-topic information. Andries 19:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

To be quite honest, reading this latest comment from you, and the discussion on our talk pages, I am beginning to wonder if we are even discussing the same thing. There were a bunch of references in the website section that you removed. Do you disagree with those references being used as sources? Let's start with that. MarkThomas 19:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

A webpage that does not mention Hassan cannot be used as source for this article. Andries 19:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, if that's the source of your discomfort with the Website section, they we are really talking about 2 different things - (1) should there be some discussion of how Hassan determines what is a cult and (2) should there be some referencing of that from non-Hassan related sources. I would argue that on the latter point you hold rather an extreme interpretation of what is permitted on Wikipedia. Plenty of well-known people bios include references which discuss their views as well as them as an individual. MarkThomas 19:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Reg. 1. Of course Hassan's view on what is a cult should be treated, but comparisons of Hassan's views not made by reputable sources have no place here. This article is about Hassan, not about the general cult NRM, anti-cult controversy. Andries 19:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

To be perfectly honest Andries, your latter point is absurd - how can there possibly be a description of Hassan's activities without entering into such territory. Anyway, thank you for your recent edits which I accept. MarkThomas 19:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The territory is linked to extensively. Andries 19:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
My stance on the principle of staying on topic in articles is the same in all articles, regardless of POV. See e.g. talk:The Making of a Moonie. Andries 19:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I corrected your incorrect tag Andries. The material is relevant - I tried to replace this with a more appropriate tag. If you revert it again you will be breaking WP:3RR. I also looked up your article talk on the Moonies and as far as I can see it has no relevance whatever to this discussion. MarkThomas 19:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I will wait until tomorrow with reverting. I would be very suprized if the Moonies had not given a rebuttal to Hassan and his works. Andries 19:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

What? I don't understand this last comment Andries. Once again, what motive do you suspect I have? I am simply trying to bring some objectivity to this page. You on the other hand appear to have some sort of POV agenda which you are not revealing, instead repeating irrelevant comments and illogical remarks. If you revert again, you may do so, but can you at least attempt to have an open and honest discussion about why? Thanks. MarkThomas 20:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Untrue. I do not have an unrevealed agenda on this matter. Again, I support including on-topic well-sourced criticism. I will file a RFC. I really try ot be open for evidence of being wrong and may be I am illogical. Andries 20:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
What I meant to show by referring to the talk:The Making of a Moonie is that it has been my consistent habit of trying to keep articles on topic, regardless of POV. I tried to take away your unfounded suspicion about my unrevealed agenda that I would have by referring to this example. I can give many more examples. Andries 23:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
MarkThomas, I understand that you want to put Hassan's views on cults in perspective, but I think that you are doing that in the wrong way. Andries 17:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
this may be a good source for expansion Andries 17:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Steven Hassan as a "psychologist"

The American Psychological Association has issued a guideline that only those who hold a Ph.D. or Psy.D. degree in psychology or a closely related field should call themselves "psychologists". See note at the top of "Category:Psychologists". -DoctorW 21:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know anything about Steven Hassan, but I wanted to comment on the use of the term "Psychologist." The proper restrictive guideline is for "licensed psychologist" - that ties the occupational decription to the license. And it is in the American licensing where the restriction is legally enforced. "Psychologist" is NOT a restricted term (although some of the APA literature might be less than clear on that). "Psychologist" has a legitimate meaning in broader arena - a meaning not limited by law, history, geography or the English language. Steve 21:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Steven Hassan is American. The issue does not depend on licencing, as I have told you before. From the APA web site:

Definition of "psychologist"
"Psychologists have a doctoral degree in psychology from an organized, sequential program in a regionally accredited university or professional school." APA is not responsible for the specific title or wording of any particular position opening, but it is general pattern to refer to master's-level positions as counselors, specialists, clinicians, and so forth (rather than as "psychologists").

-DoctorW 21:34, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


I understand that the APA would like to restrict the word "psychologist" but they are a private organization with a vested interest in pushing their agenda. They are a lobbying force for their members. They are not a government agency and can only make recommendations. Like I said before, "psychologist" is a term that was in force before the APA existed. It is a term with a legitimate meaning across all political boundaries. No matter what the APA says, the only term that is restricted (and properly so) is "Licensed Psychologist." Steve 21:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Eileen Barker opines about Hassan

I just added a quote from Eileen Barker which is favorable toward Hassan's CMC book. Tanaats 02:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I would appreciate some more expansion, because she also wrote that Hassan generalizes too much from his own experience and that mind control has not been scientifically proven. Andries 06:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I can certainly believe that she wrote such things, but I can't find that in the article I cited. Which passages are you referring to? Tanaats 20:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
No, that is my interpretation of what Barker meant, but she was very diplomatic in her wording. Andries 20:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
"I had several misgivings while reading this book, many of which could be met by qualifications that appear in the text. I hope that readers will note that Hassan describes "mind control" as a process which is more or less present in a number of different situations, and that it is, moreover, a process that can be resisted and overcome. I hope readers will note that, although Hassan believes it will soon be scientifically possible to tell whether someone's brainwave patterns have been changed by mind control, this has certainly not yet been done. And I hope readers will recognise that many characteristics of the movements which he describes may have changed or apply only in certain instances -- for example, I know several ex-Moonies who keep in touch with friends still in the movement."
Andries 20:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
You're right, my selection wasn't NPOV. Thanks. But if we quote that entire text, I'd want to quote the part where she tacitly admits to the existence of "deceptive manipulation, and we'd end up quoting just about the entire article. Instead, how about making a new subsequent paragraph stating simply: Sociologist and scholar of new religious movements Eileen Barker has commented on the book[1]. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tanaats (talk • contribs) 21:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC).
Yes, Barker wrote that deception in the American branch of the Unification Church existed in her 1984 book The Making of a Moonie. It seemed to be a self-reinforcing phenomenon because it was fuelled by the bad reputation that the UC had. And the UC's reputation got worse because of the deception. Andries 21:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
We could make a short comment in this article, like "the sociologist Barker who has studied the UC commented on the book." And then leave a longer excerpt in the article about the book. Andries 21:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

How about this?: The sociologist Eileen Barker, who has studied the Unification Church has commented on the book[2]:

Hassan recounts how, through his deprogramming experience, he came to recognise the mind-control techniques which had lured him, and by which he subsequently lured others, into the Unification Church...

I had several misgivings while reading this book, many of which could be met by qualifications that appear in the text. I hope that readers will note that Hassan describes "mind control" as a process which is more or less present in a number of different situations, and that it is, moreover, a process that can be resisted and overcome. I hope readers will note that, although Hassan believes it will soon be scientifically possible to tell whether someone's brainwave patterns have been changed by mind control, this has certainly not yet been done. And I hope readers will recognise that many characteristics of the movements which he describes may have changed or apply only in certain instances -- for example, I know several ex-Moonies who keep in touch with friends still in the movement.

Deceptive manipulation, whenever and wherever it occurs, is clearly wrong; people should have as much accurate information as possible, and they should not be physically disoriented or emotionally blackmailed. Readers should, however, be aware not only that well informed, professional trained counsellors do not as yet abound in Britain, but also that self-styled experts may do more harm than good.

This is undoubtedly the best book by a campaigning "anti-cultist" that I have read. Much of the practical advice that Hassan offers is eminently sane and helpful, and for this reason I shall be recommending his book to clergy, counsellors and parents.

Sounds a bit too long for me. Maybe summarize it somehow, that she is somewhat critical of him, but nevertheless recommends the book. (This surprised even me, because I consider EB as one of the worst cult apologists!). --Tilman 21:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
How about this:
The sociologist Eileen Barker, who has studied the Unification Church, has commented on the book[3]. She expressed several criticisms but nevertheless recommended the book. Tanaats
I would say "concerns" instead of "criticisms". Andries 22:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I made the change. Thanks to everyone for the feedback! Tanaats 22:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Major changes to "Deprogramming" section

I made some rather major changes to the "Deprogramming" section" that I think make it more comprehensible...

  • There were two separate references to p. 114 of Combatting Cult Mind Control, rather widely separated from each other. I put them toegher together and removed some duplicate working wording without, I think, losing any of the impact or any information. (Actually, I think that having them one after the other has more impact.)
  • I added "non-coercive" as an adjective to "exit counseling" in order to clarify the distinction from "deprogramming".
  • I put "He is one of the major proponents of exit counseling as a form of intervention therapy, and he refers to his method as "strategic intervention therapy."" in the same paragraph as " "Hassan says he spent one year assisting with deprogrammings before turning to less controversial methods. (See exit counseling.)" because they both discuss the same concept.
  • I gave the Bacus quote its own paragraph. I think that Hassan's statements and Bacus' statements each deserve their own paragraph. Tanaats

Vulnerability to AfD

Hassan is notable because he is an anti-cult activist. Someone deleted that wording from the introduction, which could make the article vulnerable to AfD. I've restored the original wording. The view has been expressed that some of the anti-cultists who heavily edit cult-related articles on Wikipedia are, in fact, cult members who are trying to discredit the anti-cult position by making those articles appear obviously biased or by acting in other ways to undermine the anti-cult point of view. Let me publicly state for the record that I believe this rumor to be false (especially in this case). -DoctorW 17:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Hassan is notable because he is an Anti-cult activist. No generally accepted definition of the anti-cult movement exists nor is there any verifiable proof of being an ant-cult activist in the form of a membership card or something like that. Nevertheless there seems to be concensus or near-consensus in the case of Hassan that he belongs to the anti-cult movement. Andries 18:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
There is not consensus because the very existence of an ACM is disputed. :)
I should have commented here on the Talk page, but (belatedly commenting here) I changed to "anti-cult activist" wikilink to point to "Opposition to cults and new religous movements".

Tanaats 18:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The article is not at all "vulnerable to an AfD". Sure, anybody could submit one, but there's no way it would be successful. --Tilman 18:37, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Notability

DrW: Hassan is quite quite notable just as I have described him. Calling him an "anti-cult activist" is like calling you an "anti-mental-illness activist". You wouldn't want to be described as an "anti-something" as your primary career designation, and cult critics don't like it either. Let's leave it as-is please. Tanaats 06:27, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Hassan has defined himself as a cult opponent. He has a good sense for how to stir up controversy, and it gets him on TV shows. I remember seeing him years ago on Niteline claiming, of members of the Unification Church: "When you're not allowed to think...". These are not the words of a researcher trying to get at the nuanced, objective truth. He is a polemicist. Perhaps you would like to change the entry for Ann Coulter to read: "expert on the Democratic party". I'm sure that's what she would "like". I wouldn't mind "cult opponent" or "cult critic" or something similar that is true to the reason that he has a modicum of fame. But "cult expert" is simply misleading. It is not why he's well-known. By the way, my comments above about AfD were facetious. I just think his primary role is the one that should be indicated at the head of the article. -DoctorW 14:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree, "anti-cult activist" is the best description. Whether he likes the term or not isn't really relevant. I'm sure the many groups and people he calls cults and cultists don't like it either. In my researching I've been unable to find any peer-reviewed academic papers published by him in the field of "cults" or "NRM" that would qualify him as "expert". I have found him described as an "expert witness" on cults for a Congressional inquiry, but further research indicated the source for this description is himself, that he was only 24 or so and recently departed the Unification Church and spoke about his experience there - not as a "cult expert" but as an "expert" on his own experience with the Unification Church. We're all experts on ourselves, or at least I hope so! I see he claims a M.Ed in Counselling Psychology from Cambridge College in 1985 . The Cambridge College website indicates that at that time Cambridge was a non-accredited distance education school, so he appears to have no accredited formal education relevant to the field either. Being good at self-promoting one self as an expert does not make one an expert. Furthermore the models he uses are based on theories that have been discredited by the mainstream academic community. So what we have a person of questionable qualifications who wrote a book, setup a website, and charges people for his "expertise". --Insider201283 15:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Re "cult expert", please see my reply to DrW below.
Re "expert witness", someone has already recently hung a "fact" tag on that. If I can't find a cite in a week or so, we can take it out.
Dr W, please cite where Hassan has defined himself exclusively as a "cult opponent".
Hassan is an early pioneer in the development of non-coercive intervention techniques. He is the author of two books on the subject of cults, on their unethical use of psychological influence methods, on how to intervene non-coercively to help members out of cults, and on recovering from the cult experience once out. These books have both received very positive reviews from many notable people. These include a very positive review on CCMC from Philip Zimbardo, the former president of the APA. (See Combatting Cult Mind Control and Releasing the Bonds for material on the reviews).
Just the one very positive review from someone with the scholarship and notability of Zimbardo qualifies Hassan as an "expert". Hassan is not just an "opponent". He is not just an "activist". He is widely recognized by many notable persons as an "expert", and must be represented as such in the article for NPOV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tanaats (talk • contribs) 18:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC).
Shouldn't this list of "many notable people" be incorporated somehow? As it is 24 of the 30 references for this article are from Steven Hassan's website. I'm aware of Zimbardo's review ("a" former president, not "the" former president. I believe some other former presidents don't consider Hassan an expert. --Insider201283 19:24, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
The "many notable people" are quoted in the individual articles on each book. I could positively flood this article by copying the quotes here, but I doubt that anyone other than you and I would approve.
I have a lot of material supporting "expert". If you have material supporting "not an expert" then let's discuss it. Tanaats 19:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I've only started looking at Hassan's credentials etc this past day or so and reading criticism from folk like Hadden and Bromley, who seem to be better credentialled. I think the article definitely needs to be rewritten with some 3rd party sourcing if you have them. At the moment 24 of 30 citations are from his site, that really raises a red flag to me. I'm a former academic and anyone who submitted an article for evaluation or publication which pretty much only cited themselves would be crucified. So if you have other sources, please use them where appropriate. Self-published sources in an article about an individual have their place, but right now this does seem very unbalanced. --Insider201283 20:10, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

DrW, I can't at all understand your edit comment on switching back to "anti-cult activist". What do you mean by "clear"? Clear to you and Insider, perhaps? But AFAIK, in WP terms, the "verdict" is not at clear when there is an active dispute occuring on the Talk page. I'll go ahead and open an RfC. Tanaats 20:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Why not simply get some more 3rd party references into the article? My position is based purely on the fact there doesn't seem to be many actual "experts" calling him an "expert". You say you have references, so put them in! The article is far too unbalanced re referencing now, so should be done anyway. --Insider201283 20:51, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Re mention of M.Ed.

DrW, I apologize for not making an edit comment on my revert.

I honestly don't know about the accreditation. However, no claim is made in the article that the degree came from an accredited institution. I know of no WP guideline that says that only degrees from accredited institutions can be mentioned in articles. If you wish to make a point of the accreditation issue, then I suggest that you make a mention in the Criticism section. Thank you. Tanaats 20:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I've emailed Cambridge College and asked for some info on their courses back in 1985. I actually expect that since it's more than 20years ago nobody there would know! The factbook certainly seems to make it clear they were not accredited then, and that is certainly something that should be noted somewhere. --Insider201283 20:04, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Tanaats, it is not appropriate for you to revert the addition of appropriately placed, pertinent, sourced information. -DoctorW 20:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

DrW, you are right about my reversion and I do owe you an apology. My only excuse is that I misread the diff and though you had deleted the entire M.Ed mention. Pretty silly but perhaps better than deleting souced material.

The only mentions of "accreditation" that I can find in that PDF are "Cambridge College is accredited by the New England Association of Schools and Colleges (NEASC) through its Commission on Institutions of Higher Education. All Cambridge College degree programs are authorized by the Massachusetts Board of Higher Education" and "Accredited -- Yes (New England Association of Schools and Colleges)". Would you mind quoting the exact sentence that you are citing? Thanks, and again, my apologies. I'll think twice about knee-jerking next time. Tanaats 20:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, hold back a little here. NEASC says Cambridge College was first accredited in 1981. However, the CC PDF says they weren't accredited for BA in Pysch until 1994. I don't think you can have an accredited Masters Program without an Undergrad program can you? I'm not an American, perhaps Dr.W. can clarify. It appears to me the college was accredited but the particlar degree probably was not. Hopefully they'll reply and let me know. :-) --Insider201283 20:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I made the same assumption that the accreditation for the Masters Program would have come at the same time or after the Undergrad program. It seems clear from the reference, but I'll go ahead and take it out for now until we have confirmation. -DoctorW 00:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Should Hassan be described as an "anti-cult activist", or instead as a "cult expert"?

This is a dispute about whether the subject of this article, Steven Hassan, is best described as an "anti-cult activist" or is best described as a "cult expert".

Statements by partisans in the debate
  • DoctorW and Insider insist that the subject of this article, Steven Hassan, should be described in the article as an "anti-cult activist. I in turn insist that he be described as a "cult expert". My reasons are:
  • Calling Hassan an "anti-cult activist" Is quite distorting and POV. We wouldn't, as an example, refer to DoctorW as an "anti-mental-illness activist" because it would be obviously quite distorting. Both Hassan and DoctorW have made contributions to society that extend far beyond mere "activism". Such contributions by Hassan are well documented and well sourced in the article.
  • On the other hand, calling Hassan a "cult expert" is both accurate and NPOV. Hassan is an early pioneer in the development of non-coercive techniques for assisting people in leaving cults. He is the author of two books on the subject of cults, on their unethical use of psychological influence methods, on how to intervene non-coercively to help members out of cults, and on recovering from the cult experience once a person is out. Both of these books have received very positive reviews from many notable people. These include a very positive review on Combatting Cult Mind Control from Dr. Philip Zimbardo, a professor of Psychology at Stanford and a former president of the American Psychological Society. (Please see Combatting Cult Mind Control and Releasing the Bonds for the actual reviews)
  • To call Hassan an "anti-cult activist" is introducing "biased or malicious content" as defined by WP:BLP. Tanaats 21:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


1. Your analogy is amusing, but has no relevance. I am not an activist; Steven Hassan clearly is (that's the main reason he has a degree of fame). Hassan's own actions have defined him as anti-cult. Thus his main identity is anti-cult activist.

2. His choice of language, polemics, and style of self-promotion are that of an activist, not of a researcher who is interested in the nuanced accuracy of objective findings.

3. Hassan has made important contributions beyond his activism, and we should applaud the work he is doing as well as his renunciation of deprogramming. He is not best known, however, for his sociological or psychological knowledge, or even for the content of his counselling methods, but for his anti-cult stance in the media.

4. He has had no formal training in research methods. His techniques have not been evaluated scientifically by himself or by any other qualified researcher. No efficacy studies have been done. We don't know whether his methods actually work. (This is true of many therapies.)

5. Insider201283 mentions above that he has not been able to find even a single article published by Hassan in a peer-reviewed journal!! If this is true, he certainly cannot be called an "expert". If the defendant confesses on the witness stand, the trial is pretty much over; that's what I meant by "the verdict is clear".

6. Zimbardo is certainly notable, but a positive review of one's book does not make one an expert on the subject matter of the book. As a developmental psychologist, I might write a positive review of Bill Cosby's book "Fatherhood". This does not make Bill Cosby an expert on fatherhood. More to the point, it does not make Bill Cosby's primary identity that of "expert on fatherhood".

7. Your reference to "biased or malicious content" as defined by WP:BLP is ludicrous and ironic. It is only because of the consistently biased nature of the edits of cult critics on this and other cult pages, and your collective refusal to allow even small corrections or tempering of that bias, that I have become annoyed with you and become inclined to "take the other side". Don't you realize that by overstating your case you undermine the gospel you are trying so fervently to promote? -DoctorW 00:13, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


  • Response to DoctorW...
  • No one, including Hassan, has to be a "researcher" in order to be an "expert". This is the very first time that I've ever heard of such a completely arbitrary restriction. And "experts" are not excluded from using any particular style of "language, polemics, and style of self-promotion".
An "expert" is normally thoroughly familiar with the professional literature in that area. In this case we are (presumably) talking about psychology research (therapeutic techniques for recovering cult victims). -DoctorW 03:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Once again, you've made up a definition of "expert" out of thin air.
(DrW, would you mind not chopping up my comments by interleaving your own? It's actually considered poor Wikipedia etiquette. I got called on it myself by a very experienced and knowledgable Admin. I have subsequently seen why it is poor etiquette. For example, my paragraph just above now has no signature on it. If everyone starts interleaving their comments like you did, very very soon no one will know who said what to whom. Thanks.) Tanaats 00:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
  • We do not necessarily define a person in a Wikipedia biography by what they are "best known" to the public at large for. We should define the subject of a biography according to what we can find in RSs. And all of the RS material presented thus far clearly documents Hassan's expertise in the areas of cults and cult psychology.
For those who don't know the Wikipedia abbreviation, "RS" stands for "Reliable sources". -DoctorW 03:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
  • As you very aptly point out, many therapists (probably nearly all of them) do not meet the completely arbitrary criteria that you have laid out. Does this mean that no such therapist can ever be described as an "expert"?
  • I know of no Wikipedia guideline that requires that a person must have been published in a peer-reviewed journal before they can be described as an "expert" in their biography. This is another completely arbitrary restriction that I doubt any of us reading your words have ever heard of before. And again, for example, you are implicitly saying that only a relatively tiny subset of "therapists" can possibly be considered to be "experts".
  • I don't find your Cosby analogy apt. For example, I strongly doubt that Cosby's book was very positively reviewed in the American Journal of Psychiatry by someone who, among other accomplishments, was at one time head the of department and the director of the Neuropsychiatry Institute at UCLA:[4]

"One is impressed by Hassan's candor in describing his experiences both within the Unification Church and after his departure from it, especially his work as an exit counselor. Beyond its value as an illuminating personal account, this book is an informative and practical guide to cult-related issues. It is recommended both to lay persons who wish to become better informed on this topic and to professionals in health-related fields, clergy, attorneys, judges, and others whose responsibilities bring them into contact with cults, their members, and the families whose lives are affected. - (Louis Jolyon West, American Journal of Psychiatry)."

  • I'll ignore your ad hominism.
I don't know what you're talking about. Are you calling my reference to the bias in some of your contributions to cult-related articles ad hominem? -DoctorW 03:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I'll stop responding now in order to give anyone responding to the RfC a chance to catch up with all of with this. Tanaats 02:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Comments by Sfacets

On the freedomofmind.com website's about page it is written:

"As a cult expert, cult counselor, and mental health professional, Steve (...)"

On the other hand, it is true that while he is a cult expert he is also an Ant-Cult Activist - the two do not cancel each other out. If we take the example of DoctorW, He could be a doctor and also an activist to raise awareness of mental illness. Couldn't we place both terms in the article, like "Steven Alan Hassan (1954 - ) is a prominent cult expert and known anti-cult activist"? Sfacets 16:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

You cannot cite Steve Hassan's own opinion in support of him being an expert. --Insider201283 17:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Works for me. Tanaats 19:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC) (edited Tanaats 21:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC))
It was a good thought Sfacets, but on further reflection I've changed my mind. Please see my "pro-freedom-of-mind activist" comment. Tanaats 21:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Comments by Sethie

Came here via the RfC. Ummm my first thought is "What do others call him?", i.e. what do WP:RS sources have to say about him? If neither of these titles are used by others, maybe we should drop both?

If there are no clear titles, provided via RS what is the most neutral description of him? My hunch is it would be a speaker and writer who is critical of cults?

A number of people above have asserted that he is "an activist." I don't agree or disagree with this. And this is wikipedia.... saying a thing does not matter, finding a SOURCE that says a thing does. :)

The same applies to "expert." We need sources, not arguements! Sethie 19:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Well this is part of the problem, there may be disagreement among WP:RS acceptable sources too. The late Professor Hadden at the University of Virginina and his coauthor Professor David Bromley referred to Steve Hassan as "a Unification Church apostate and entrepreneur" and member of the "anti-cult movement" [8]. At a 2005 conference by CESNUR, the Center for Study in New Religions, an academic group, he was again referred to by John Brown as a member of the "anti-cult movement" and as "mental health counselor and an exit counselor".[9].
--Insider201283 19:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Sethie, actually I've seen a number of bios where a subjedt's profession is stated in the intro without being supported by a direct quote from an RS in which someone actually explicitly labels the subject with that profession. Tanaats 19:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
argumentum ad numerum - doesn't mean it's right. In this case the description has been challenged, so sourcing is needed. "Anti-cult author and exit counsellor" would seem to be one accurate description? "activist" is a bit of a fuzzy term I think. --Insider201283 20:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
It is not "agrumentum ad numerum" in that I did not draw a conclusion. It is an observation which is most certainly relevant to this discussion. Regardless, to again repeat my position, the term "anti-cult activist" is a complete distortion of the sum of Hassan's activies over the years, and of the sum of writings. It is highly POV because "anti" means that he is "against" something. The contrasting POV is that he is "pro-freedom-of-mind". I'm sure that you and DrW would fight to keep that out of the article, and for very good reason. "Anti-cult activist" is extremely POV for exactly the same reason. Tanaats 21:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure I agree. I'm anti-religion (all of them, not just ones someone might call a cult, which in my opinion is entirely a POV description), it's an accurate view of my position. "pro-freedom of mind" would also be an accurate view of my position. Hassan certainly isn't ambivalent or pro-"cult", so that only leaves "anti-cult" and as I provided, "scholarly sources" have referred to him as part of the anti-cult movement. If you want to call him "pro-freedom of mind" and with WP:RS valid sources to back it up and there was no disputing WP:RS sources, go for it. --Insider201283 21:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Nice find Tanaats, I think his website is called "Freedom of Mind."
Yeah- I have seen lots of bios like that as well.... uncited statements of proffesion. I am guessing this is so because the proffesion- and what the proffesion is called, doesn't have a lot of controvery.
I propose that for the intro we change anti-cult activist to "critic of cults" and deal with the "is he a member of the "anti-cult movement" issue somewhere OTHER then the intro. Since the sources listed are just two individuals, I think it violates WP:NPOV to just write "he IS a member of the anti-cult movement." For me it needs a "according to some" or something like that. Sethie 21:18, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, his contributions are not just limited to "criticizing" cults either.  :)
Of course! :) My suggestion is to leave everything as it is, and change the words "anti-cult activist" to "critic of cults" and deal with the "anit-cult activist" in a paragraph down below. Sethie 00:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Compromise offer by Tanaats

I offer the following compromise:

  • Completely avoid the use of terms that convey an evalutation. Don't use "anti-cult activist." Don't use "cult expert."
  • Expand the intro to provide more evidence of notability. (This was the main reason that DrW wanted "anti-cult activist" in the article.)
  • To implement this, I propose the following intro:

Hassan was an early advocate of exit counseling, and is the author of two books on the subject of cults and their use of mind control, thought reform, and the psychology of influence. He has developed his own non-coercive methods for helping cult members to leave their groups, and has also developed therapeutic approaches for counseling former members in order to help them overcome the effects of their cult memberships. He has testified as an expert witness during the 1977-1978 United States Congressional investigation of the Unification Church,[citation needed] and he has appeared on 60 Minutes, Nightline, Dateline, Larry King Live, and The O'Reilly Factor. He has over thirty years of experience with counseling both current and former members of cults.

In his first book, Combatting Cult Mind Control, he describes his experiences as a member the Unification Church, and describes the exit counseling methods that he developed based on those experiences, and based on his subsequent studies of psychological influence techniques.

In his latest book Releasing the Bonds, which was published twelve years after Combatting Mind Control, he describes the evolution of his exit counseling procedures into a more advanced procedure that he calls the "Strategic Interaction Approach."

Tanaats 05:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

This avoids expressing evaluations in the intro and firmly establishes his notability. Tanaats 05:10, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


I like it. I think maybe the last sentence about the book could be put down lower under the deprograming? otherwise that looks good to me.Sethie 05:22, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I think you're right. I was trying to achieve overkill on the "notability" issue because DrW has been so concerned about that. But I think Hassan is pretty damned notable without having book summaries in the intro. Tanaats 05:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Much better, but two issues. I think the "expert witness" part needs to be left out unless I proper citation can be found. The circumstantial evidence indicates that it's not true, at least as it relates to "cults" in general. Also there's some POV wording there eg "cults and their use of mind control". This assumes "mind control" exists, mainstream academic thought say it doesn't, and also begs the question of what a cult is. --Insider201283 12:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I see that Smeelgova has implemented my compromise proposal. Please see my own edits made in an attempt to address your concerns. I took out the testimony mention until a cite can be found. I put "cults" in quotes and wikilinked to the article on cults where readers can read in detail on the debate over the term. I feel that this adequately qualifies the use of the term in the rest of the intro. The reader will remember that it was qualified by being in quotes. I don't think it would either look good or be necessary to quote the term in the rest of the intro. We can put a larger mention of the controversy over the term farther down in the article headed by a "see also" to the main Cult article.
Upon seeing how it actually looks in "print", I now think that mention of his two books in the intro is appropriate. It doesn't bloat the intro and helps nail down "notability" so that I think any AfD won't have the chance of a snowball. Tanaats 15:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! Someone wanted to AfD this article? Sethie 17:02, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Nope. No one has tried that. But DrW was so concerned about the possibility of a successful AfD that he insisted on putting "anti-cult activist" in the info, asserting that we had to include what really gave Hassan his notability. Tanaats 17:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Ummmmmm that it is totally and utterly ridiculous that Hassan could be succefully AfD'd and even moreso that putting those few words in the intro would prevent it? Sethie 17:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I do recall thinking that it was completely unnecessary to be concerned about that. Tanaats 17:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I've cancelled the RfC. Tanaats 15:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Comments by neutral third parties

Expert

It seems to me this all comes down to the definition of "expert". WP:RS is used to determine whether a source of information should be considered "reliable" or not. I think it's a reasonable to consider someone an expert in a field if they could be considered a reliable source of information on the topic. Let's evaluate -
  • Aspects of reliability
Scholarship
* The material has been thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals.
* Items that are recommended in scholarly bibliographies are preferred.
* In articles on religions and religious practices, religious scholars (recognized authorities on the religion) are considered reliable sources for the religion's practices and beliefs, and traditional religious and academic views of religious practices should generally both be cited and attributed as such when they differ.

I think we can agree that Steven Hassan does not pass this criteria. While some in the scholarly community accept his work, many do not, and he does not appear to have any peer-reviewed publications. So we look to -

Non-scholarly sources
* Attributability

I'd say we know quite a lot, but it's not all supportive of him as a reliable source.

* Expertise

He is not an "academic" expert, so whether this is his area of academic expertise isn't relevant

* Bias

We know from his own work that he definitely has biases in the field, which raises questions as to his reliability

* Editorial oversight

Little to no expert editorial oversight of his website or publications

* Replicability

Critics of the whole Hassan/Singer/Lifton Model point to it's complete lack in this area.

* Declaration of sources

I haven't read his books, so someone else will have to comment here. From what I understand his "quoted" sources are primarily Singer/Lifton, whom I believe have generally had their theories discredited in the "scholarly" community.

* Confidentiality

not relevant?

* Corroboration

I'm unaware of any scholarly corroborative work for Hassan's theories. Tanaats, can you provide?

* Recognition by other reliable sources—A source may be considered more reliable if another source which is generally considered reliable cites or recommends it. Sources which have been attacked, or have rarely or never been cited, may be more suspect.

He has been recognized by some "reliable sources" but has also been attacked by others.

* Age of the source and rate of change of the subject

I don't think this appears relevant

* Persistence

Overall I think persistance applies

So, it appears Hassan's position as a "reliable source" pretty much relies entirely on the fact he's relatively consistent in his message and has recognition from some "reliable sources". Countering this are other reliable sources explictly disavowing his expertise and his known bias in the area.

--Insider201283 17:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Insider, he is indeed a "non-scholary source. Per WP:RS:
  • Scholarship -- This is a criterion for scholarly sources. It does not apply.
  • Attributability -- The more we know about the originator, either organisation or individual, of source material, the better. This helps us measure the authority of the content.
We know an incredible amount about Hassan.
  • Expertise of the originator about the subject -- An academic expert in one subject is more reliable when writing about that subject than when writing about another. For example, a biologist is more reliable when writing about biology than when writing about nuclear physics.
It explicitly refers to "academic experts", which Hassan is most admittedly not. The criterion does not apply
  • Bias of the originator about the subject -- If an author has some reason to be biased, or admits to being biased, this should be taken into account when reporting his or her opinion. This is not to say that the material is not worthy of inclusion, but please take a look at our policy on Neutral point of view.
He definitely has a bias, which is trumpeted in his article. Note that "This is not to say that the material is not worthy of inclusion, but please take a look at our policy on Neutral point of view", therefore material from a biased source is not ipso facto excluded. Regarding "please take a look at our policy on Neutral point of view": to assert that a biased person's opinion can never be reported in a WP article means asserting that half of the articles in WP should be deleted. Instead, on articles about contentious subjects we achieve NPOV by adding well-sourced counterpoints. If you can find further well-sourced criticism of Hassan, please do add it to the article.
  • Replicability -- The conclusions of the source can be reached using the information available and there is no indication of gaps in the thinking or process of derivation. Essentially, this criterion asks if there are any leaps of faith in the source.
Hassan's position is logically extremely internally consistent. This criterion does not exclude him.
  • Declaration of sources -- A source which is explicit about the data from which it derives its conclusions is more reliable than one which does not. Ideally, a source should describe the collection process and analysis method.
  • It says "ideally" and "is more reliable". It does not provide a criterion for exclusion.
  • Confidentiality -- Sources which are considered confidential by the originating publisher may hold uncertain authority. Given that the original cannot be used to validate the reference, these should be treated with caution.
Not relevant indeed.
  • Corroboration -- The conclusions match with other sources in the field which have been derived independently. If two or more independent originators agree, in a reliable manner, then the conclusions become more reliable. Care must be taken to establish that corroboration is indeed independent, to avoid an invalid conclusion based on uncredited origination.
It says "care must be taken." It is not a criterion for exclusion.
  • Recognition by other reliable sources -- A source may be considered more reliable if another source which is generally considered reliable cites or recommends it. Sources which have been attacked, or have rarely or never been cited, may be more suspect.
Similarly, this is not a criterion for exclusion.
  • Age of the source and rate of change of the subject -- Where a subject has evolved or changed over time, a long standing source may not be accurate with respect to the current situation. To interpret utility one must appreciate how the subject has changed and if that change has impacted any of the salient points of the source information. Historical or out-of-date sources may be used to demonstrate evolution of the subject but should be treated with caution where used to illustrate the subject. If no newer sources are available, it is reasonable to caveat use of sources with an indication of the age and the resulting reduction in reliability.
Hassan is most definitely a current source. Regardless, this is not a criterion for exclusion.
  • Persistence -- If a reader goes to the cited source to validate a statement, or to gain further understanding of the topic, the form cited should remain stable, continuing to contain the information used by the editor to support the words. In this sense a book or journal citation is superior to an online source where the link may become broken. Some web resources have editorial policies which lead to a lack of persistence; therefore, web citations should be treated with caution.
Hassan's works are indeed a "stable source". Regardless, this is not a criterion for exclusion.
Absolutely none of these criteria make Hassan an un-reliable non-scholarly source. Tanaats 20:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear here, it seems you are saying since he can't be absolutely *excluded* based on these criteria, then he should be included? I'm reminded of the Ann Coulter example given earlier. I don't think she could be "excluded" as an expert on cults based on your reasoning either. In fact, since she has no known bias against "cults" wouldn't that make her more of an expert? These are not criteria to "fail" in order to be excluded - these are criteria to evaluate whether a source is reliable or not. It would seem to me you agree with the assessment that he does not seem to match the criteria of a reliable source, either scholarly or non-scholarly. --Insider201283 21:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Tanaats, what specifically do you claim that Hassan is an expert on? I gave you the benefit of the doubt before, assuming that you meant his therapeutic techniques for recovering cult victims. But are you claiming that he is also an expert in the sociology of religion, specifically NRMs, or some subset of it? Would you claim that he is not an expert on all NRMs, just the Unification Church (about which he testified to the Congressional Subcommittee)? Are you claiming that he is an expert in the psychological techniques that cults employ in the recruitment of members? Experts in the modern world are experts in a very specific and delineated area or areas; they are not experts in some general area like "life" (unless they are messianic figures). -DoctorW 21:17, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I've stated many times what his expertise is in, and you are more than intelligent enough to have remembered. I can only consider this another effort (see below) to obfuscate the discussion.
He is an expert on the general subject of cults. This includes, but is not limited to, expertise on the unethical use of powerful psychological influence techniques, on non-coercive intervention methods to assist people in overcoming the grip of these techniques so that they can leave their cult (he is an early pioneer in this area), and counseling former members of cults in order to help them heal from the psychological damage inflicted via the application of these techniques by their former group . Tanaats 00:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
You are not allowed to make moral judgements on Wikipedia. Anything Wikipedia allows you to do here, I can do elsewhere, on as many articles as I like, on any articles that I like. Tanaats 23:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Moved from "Expert" section

Clarification: The discussion below is not meant to be part of the RfC discussion

[Re: "Experts in the modern world are experts in a very specific and delineated area or areas; they are not experts in some general area like 'life' (unless they are messianic figures)."] I'd have to disagree with that last part. After many years of successful practice and no failure(s) as yet (ignoring any concepts of reincarnation), I think I'm quite the expert at this "living" thing. ;-) --Insider201283 21:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you are a messianic figure but simply never realized your special calling. Have you ever considered starting your own cult? As a former academic, you would have a certain respectability that you could exaggerate further. You might need to develop your entrepreneurship...maybe you could learn a thing or two from Hassan. -DoctorW 21:43, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Ahh, believe me, I'm trying. But I'm still struggling a little with exactly how to do this "cult" thing. I'm trying my damndest to conform to the BITE model but every time I feel I have it working my "cult" just ends up looking like pretty much the same as any major corporation or school .... Maybe I'm just too stupid or ignorant to be able to understand it's power to discriminate between the really mundane and the mildly mundane.;-) --Insider201283 23:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

DrW, Insider, this is an RfC. The discussion about the dispute is complex enough to follow for anyone responding to the RfC . Unless your intention is to sabotage the RfC by filling the discussion with nonsense, please continue the nonsense in it's own section. Tanaats 00:19, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually this *is* in a separate section to the RfC. Something I think I was writing about the same time you were doing the RfC and it got submitted after but has overlapping information, so I understand the confusion. Given I have quals in Psychology and DrW. also has quals in psychology I actually think our commentary on the validity of the BITE model is quite relevant to the discussion, even if made in a humorous way. Nevertheless, my apologies if it was offensive or otherwise out of line from your perspective. --Insider201283 01:07, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Then I'm quite sorry that I took the time to compose my massive reply. When you place "Comments by neutral third parties" at the bottom of the section it sure looks look you are breaking a part of the already very tangled RfC discussion off into its own section to try to restore some clarity. I actually thought it was an excellent idea. In order to prevent others from misunderstanding as I did I've put a clarifying note at the top of this section. Tanaats 01:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
My mistake re the "comments by neutral third parties". Still, it would appear this section ["Expert" section] is relevant to the RfC anyway, well apart from me being the messiah. ;-) --Insider201283 14:50, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I certainly thought it was quite relevant. But let's please suspend this discussion until everyone has time to consider my compromise offer and respond? Tanaats 14:54, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Even more sure..

DrW, regarding your edit comment:

I'm sure you didn't mean to exclude other partisans, and I'm even more sure that you didn't want to encourage them to "deceptively" pretend that they are neutral. :-))

I'm glad that you are so sure that I didn't in fact want to encourage partisans to "deceptively" pretend that they are neutral. Because you are correct in your certainty. I got the line that you have just edited verbatim from Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Article RfC example. Tanaats 01:40, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

At first I didn't know what you were talking about. I meant my comment in the edit summary that you've quoted here as a lighthearted joke (just to be sure I added a smiley - very uncharacteristic of me) referring to the fact that cult members are often criticized for being deceptive. I'm sure you didn't mean to exclude other non-neutral partisans who regularly edit cult-related pages (or imply that they are neutral). -DoctorW 03:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the elaboration. Tanaats 04:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Qualfiy the bio?

Dang, I hit the wrong revert button again.

BD, no, no, no. You are making up guidelines out of thin air again. Tanaats 01:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if its not verifiable

Tanaats, rather than continually accusing me of making things up, please refer to this discussion about the shortcomings of autobiographical material, where its noted with respect to such material:

  • They are often biased, usually positively (see puffery). People have a tendency towards self-aggrandizement when talking about themselves, and for presenting opinions as facts. Wikipedia does not present opinions as facts. Muhammad Ali writing "I am the greatest" in a Wikipedia article about himself is not acceptable, for example. Wikipedia articles must be written from a neutral point of view (which does not mean simply writing in the third person).
  • They can be unverifiable. If the only source for a particular fact about you is you yourself, then readers cannot verify it. (One common area where this is the case is with hopes, dreams, thoughts, and aspirations. There is no way for readers to verify what you think.) However true something may be, if readers cannot verify it, it does not belong here. Everything in Wikipedia articles must be verifiable.
  • They can contain original research. People often include in autobiographies information that has never been published before, or which is the result of firsthand knowledge. This type of information would require readers to perform primary research in order to verify it. (For example: Unless your shoe size is, for some extraordinary reason, already a matter of widespread public knowledge, including your shoe size in an article about yourself is original research, since verifying it would require readers to come to you and measure your feet for themselves.) Wikipedia is not a publisher of first instance, and as such, original research is not permitted in Wikipedia.

That is the rationale for noting in the article that the extended biographical section comes entirely from Hassan himself. It is unverifiable or only with great difficulty, since Hassan is an extremely minor public figure and reliable independent information on his life is barely extant. I'm not sure why this worries you so much. BabyDweezil 04:08, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's wait to see what Bishonen has to contribute. Tanaats 04:18, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I'm feeling more energetic today so let's take a run at this. Let's work backwards from today.
  • Re this edit. If I were to go through every biography in Wikipedia and insert that sort of statement every time the biographee was a primary source for the article, I'd get my butt kicked. I'd get my butt kicked every time I did it. I can't do that on other bios, and you can't do it here. It's completely unneccesary and breaks the flow of the article. It's unneccessary because the cite makes it perfectly clear where the material came from. And it is verifiable. See WP:V again. What "verifiable" means in this context is that someone can verify that Hassan actually said these things about himself. It emphatically does not mean that the reader should be able to verify these things as true. No biography is asked to meet that criterion, and this one can't be asked to do that either. And it is completely ok for extended biographical information to come from the subject himself.
  • Re this edit. You took out well sourced material. You didn't give an edit summary, but I assume it was because you didn't like what you felt that these statements implied. We are not allowed to make editing decisions based on our opinions as to what a source is implying. If we could do that, I would make a rampage through a huge number of articles, such as Anti-cult movement and Margaret Singer and DIMPAC, to give just three examples out of many, removing all the statements whose implications I felt were in any way misleading. I can't do that sort of thing. You can't either.
  • This edit is a good one. Tanaats 21:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
The argument to the effect of "if we did that here we would have to do it everywhere" really doesn't seem like a valid justification for doing or not doing something. Please focus at the article at hand, and the issues with the article at hand. Other articles can take care of themselves. BabyDweezil 22:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
The rules are the same for all articles. Any edit that is legal on this article would also be legal on all of the other thousands of articles in Wikipedia. In turn, any edit that isn't legal on other articles isn't legal on this one either. You can't have it both ways. If you can do it here. then I can do it elsewhere. Tanaats 22:31, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. Edits to an article are either justifiable or they aren't. That's precisely my point--the argumentation about "If I were to go through every biography in Wikipedia..." is irrelevant to the discussion. We don't argue against murdering people by worrying that if I were to allow you to murder someone, they everyone can murder everyone. BabyDweezil 22:37, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
??????
BabyDweezil, that's precisely why murder isn't allowed!!! Tanaats 22:41, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I thought it was because we agree its wrong, and a violation of our agreed upon code of conduct, not because "if I let you do it then I have to let everyone do it." But we digress. BabyDweezil 22:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
You are not allowed to make edits on Wikipedia based on your personal moral judgements. And anything Wikipedia lets you do here, I can do elsewhere, on as many articles as I like. Tanaats 23:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
All my edits are based on attempts to faithfully follow wikipedia guidelines. To the extent that I have brought a tiny bit of NPOV to some of these ridiculously biased, POV and moralistic "cult" related entries, feel free to do act as a disciple of neutrality elsewhere! I'm all for spreading the gospel of fairness and eliminating bias. BabyDweezil 23:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, no one can say I didn't try. Tanaats 23:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Seven external links from the same website?

The external links currently has seven different links all from hassan's personal website. Bit excessive, eh? BabyDweezil 06:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Per WP:EL, only one is per site allowed. I'll try to move some of them within the article as references, if they aren't there already. --Tilman 21:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

--Tilman 21:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

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