Talk:Steven Hassan

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Talk:Steven Hassan/Archive 1 March 2004 - February 2007

Contents

[edit] John B. Brown

Thank you EmmDee for putting the quote in the correct context. My problem is that I have only the german version of the book, and I couldn't find the quote.

With your data, my suggestion would be to remove the segment completely. John B. Brown is not a reliable source, he is not a cult expert, not a journalist. Anyone can bring up a paper at CESNUR. Even me. Massimo told me this once.

Alternatively, simply use the whole segment without John. I haven't said anything in the past because I believe that criticism, even against people whom I DO like, should be accepted. --Tilman 21:51, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

With all due repect Tilman, I think your statement is unjustified. I have my bachelor degree, and now am studying my master's degree. I am a professional. Also I do not think that that CESNUR would tell you that anyone could bring up a paper at their conferenes. My reason for questioning this is simple: CESNUR requires a C.V., abstract, and that the research paper be of academic caliber. That is what I was told by CESNUR before I presented my first research paper. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by John196920022001 (talk • contribs).
Your paper isn't of academic caliber (hint: footnotes alone are not what makes a paper of high quality), and no CV is attached. And it seems you quoted the book out of context. --Tilman 18:55, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I did not quote the book out of context. The immediate context makes it clear despite what someone says in an earlier paragraph. "The non-coercive approach I have developed attempts to accomplish with finesse what deprogramming does with force. Family members and friends have to work together as a team and plan their strategy to influence the cult member. Although the non-coercive approach will not work in every case, it has proved to be the option most families prefer. Forcible intervention can be kept as a last resort if all other attempts fail (Hassan, 1990)" John196920022001 08:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The full text of the two paragraphs in question reads:

'I decided not to participate in forcible interventions, believing it was imperative to find another approach. Legal and voluntary access to the cult member had to be found; family and friends were the key. But they needed to become knowledgeable about cults and mind control, and they needed to be coached in how to communicate with a cultist effectively.
'NON-COERCIVE EXIT COUNSELING: THREE CASE HISTORIES
'The non-coercive approach I have developed attempts to accomplish with finesse what deprogramming does with force. Family members and friends have to work together as a team and plan their strategy to influence the cult member. Although the non-coercive approach will not work in every case, it has proved to be the option most families prefer. Forcible intervention can be kept as a last resort if all other attempts fail.'

(Combatting Cult Mind Control, p114, 1990 edition, ISBN 1-85538-025-0)

It is only possible to interpret the sentence "Forcible intervention can be kept as a last resort if all other attempts fail." as "indicating that Hassan might resort to a forcible intervention if all other attempts fail." if the sentence is read in isolation from the first sentence of the preceeding paragraph ('I decided not to participate in forcible interventions, ...')

It seem the same questionable interpretation also features in the article about Hassan's book 'Combatting Cult Mind Control' at:: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combatting_Cult_Mind_Control#Critical_viewpoints EmmDee 22:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Publication of Hassan's book

There was a statement in the article about "the last publication" of Hassan's Combatting Cult Mind Control. The book is till being published. Check Amazon. I think a more accurate rendering would be edition rather than publication

[edit] Criticism Section

I would like to know why someone in the 'Criticism'section called that criticism unjustified. This defense should be put in another section. I recommend a section called something like 'Proponents.' In addition, the author has included his/her personal commentary by referring to the criticism as unjustified. If that person has done some research and would like to cite that research pertaining to that criticism that would be more appropriate

The research I did included reading the preceeding paragraph on page 114 of 'Combatting Cult Mind Control', and I cited that. It seems self-evident that it pertains to Brown's interpretation of one sentence in the succeding paragraph. EmmDee 22:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I finally found it in the german version of CCMC, it is on page 200.
I suggest the removal of the Brown section in both articles. His criticism is out of context, the previous para makes it clear that Hassan won't do involuntary deprogramming anymore. Plus, as explained before, this John Brown isn't a reliable source per WP:RS. His only qualification is a rather poorly written paper for CESNUR (explaining why the Jehovah Witnesses are human right champions, and that Steve Hassan is potentially dangerous).
I'd remove it tonight. Anyone (except John) wishes to keep it? --Tilman 07:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Removed. Any other parts w/ non-reputable sources? Smee 07:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

That is not true. I have a Bachelor's in human services, and am currently in a master's program. On Hassan's own yahoo group this subject comes up and it was acknowledged that CESNUR is a reliable source. It was acknowledged that the comments were acceptable (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freedomofmind/message/28895). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.228.42.10 (talk • contribs).

1) Link doesn't work 2) No idea what "human services" is - is this the PC word for "clerk" (like "office manager" is the PC word for "secretary", or is it a social worker job, or is it a new word for Anthropology?) 3) what makes you a recognised expert - have your work or opinions been quoted by the media, or by scholars? (real ones, not part time copyright attorneys with cult lobbying as a hobby :-)) 4) forum postings are not reliable sources. 5) sign your posts with --~~~~. --Tilman 21:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
We have no idea if this is even all the same individual posting... Smee 21:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

.

Tilman, see http://www.universities.com/Distance_Learning/Degrees_Bachelor_Degrees_Human_Services.html. And your mocking of the editor above is rude and in violation of WP:NPA. Please desist. And you are quite mistaken, CESNUR is a reliable source. And the editor is clearly pointing out that Hassan considered it a reliable source in comments he made in a Yahoo group, not that the Yahoo group was a source. So please stop the nasty commentary. BabyDweezil 21:44, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
CESNUR is not a reliable source, this is just one copyright attorney guy with a huge library and tons of money.
That is not true also. Massimo Introvigne is part-time professor at the Regina Apostolorum Rome, Italy, and a member of the "Sociology of Religion" group of the Italian Association of Sociology. He is a social scientist John196920022001 20:11, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
contribs) 20:08, 3 March 2007 (UTC).
I don't know what John pointed out, since the link didn't work.
I have not mocked that editor. I was wondering what "human services" is, since the US language has created a lot of misleading great-sounding expressions that makes tradiational jobs sound like management positions. (I have mocked the american "PC" language, that has turned a low-level assistant into an "office manager") From the link [1] it seems that "human services" is simply a "social worker". (as I suspected). So John could have said that he's a social worker and that would have been fine. However that alone doesn't make him a reliable source per WP:RS --Tilman 06:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Once again, Tilman, you are belittling a fellow editor with snide comments such as simply a "social worker". Once again, I am insisting that you stop. Your excuse that you are mocking "american "PC" language" is transparently nonsense. No one is any more interested in your opinions on "american "PC" language" than they are in your deprecating nasty comments about fellow editors, so knock it off. BabyDweezil 21:22, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
There's nothing wrong in being a social worker, it is a respected job. And yes, I am mocking the US "PC" language. Which also turned secretaries into "office managers", "housewives" into "homemakers" and such. It is hilarious, and has been a source of fun for me for many years. But "human services" was a new one. I suspect that social workers were upset about the quote in the "Krupke" song in "West Side Story", which may have been used by some "clients" to abuse them. --Tilman 21:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Have all the fun you want making fun of American colloquialisms (although I don't believe it was those silly Americans who gave the world such lovely phrases as "judenrein," now was it?) Just keep your nasty comments about fellow editors off the talk page. BabyDweezil 21:58, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Once again, real slowly for you. I did not make a "nasty comment" about a fellow editor. The problem was that he used an expression that I have never heard before.
However, your own comment suggests that I am somehow personally responsible for events that happened before I was even born. Stop that.--Tilman 23:00, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm just commenting oin cross cultural usage of colloquialisms, which is the subject you brought up. BabyDweezil 23:11, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
John, you should simply add whatever relevant, reliably sourced information you care to that would improve the article. Don't worry about editors bullying you. BabyDweezil 02:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
That is what I have also suggested to him, remember? He can even add something by Shupe and Melton. --Tilman 21:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
How am I "notorious for this kind of behavior"?
Shupe or Melton are somewhat dubious people, as you certainly know. Both are well known cult apologists, Melton has supported AUM, Shupe has supported scientology and helped them take over the cult awareness network. But feel free to make a try and add their comments. --Tilman 06:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and the kidnapper, Waco massacre abetter and convicted thug RR is Mother Theresa. BabyDweezil 19:47, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh yeah don't forget that famous (in his own mind) self proclaimed expert, Tilting...I mean TilmanJohn196920022001 19:57, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
You are libelling Rick Ross. He is not a kidnapper, he has never been convicted for kidnapping. Nor has he "abetted" the Waco "massacre". This was done by David Koresch. RR has been convicted for stealing jewels when he was 18. This is like, 30 or 40 years ago. --Tilman 21:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, you're absolutely right, Tilman, my mistake! --I forgot to add that Ross was a jewel thief too. BabyDweezil 23:15, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
It is the only crime he was convicted of. All the rest is propaganda. --Tilman 23:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
It's pretty comical reading how much space both Ross and Hassan need to spend on their websites with their justifications for their kidnapping and thuggery in the past. The justifications are hysterical, theey are the classic pleadings and denials of sociopaths who are trying to convince people that they are really just innocent well meaning angels who may have had some minor lapses in "judgement." In Hassan's case, its pretty ironioc and comical that he would so blatently display such classic denial symptomology given that he purports to be a mental health professional. BabyDweezil 21:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Neither Rick Ross not Steve Hassan have ever been convicted of a kidnapping. --Tilman 21:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
There's that river in Egypt again. BabyDweezil 23:15, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

'Dubious' is not a wikipedia term. The correct term is reliable source, Tilman. Actually, I am happy with the current editing of the reference to Steve's book. Also Shupe did not help Scientology take over CAN. He testified as a witness in the Scott Trial. He contributed to CAN's demise as a witness in tbe trial. Just because you think these people are dubious is your opinion. Both are recognized scholars with far more expereince than I am. Lastly "cult apologist" is as pejorative as using the term anticultist." So please stop using it.John196920022001 19:43, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Shupe "testified" for scientology, although he admitted knowing nothing about CAN except what scientology attorney Moxon fed him. Never mind, perjury is no big deal in US courts :-)
Your other expert hero, Melton, shilled for AUM in Tokyo, claimed they we innocent. Too bad that his employers will soon be hanged.
What about "social worker" - is that also pejorative this week?
Now back to Steve Hassan - I understand you accept that your "contribution" is now cut off. --Tilman 21:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Note to John: I have looked at your past edits. I see that you cut off the properly sourced item added by EmmDee, in favour of your own edit, that was exposed as being misleading. Don't do this again.

I have also reverted your last edit. It cut off, without explanation, another well-sourced item. [2] You added a CESNUR item, which is kindof the bottom of the quality scale for sources (CESNUR, for example, claims that I am a "terrorist"). The paper mentions two involuntary deprogrammings by Hassan. The Roselle case is already mentioned in the article. The second case (Claire Kelley) is not documented in that article - the link is broken [3]. Maybe contact your friends at CESNUR. Plus, it doesn't allege that Hassan was himself responsible for it, so you should make this clear. Try finding another source. And don't "forget" to mention the year that it allegely happened. --Tilman 22:52, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted it again. You did not support your edit on the talk page despite me having explained the problems of your edit. --Tilman 23:32, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

You only reason for these changes is because you think they are dubious. Shupe is a professor at a university and has a Ph.D. He definately meets the qualification as a reliable source. He is published. You are letting personal bias get in the way. You were quick to use Wikipedia policy about RSs against me. I do not see you quoting policy nowJohn196920022001 23:51, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

What you are doing is propaganda. The article has minor parts (about 6 lines) about two alleged deprogrammings, only one of them documented (and already mentioned in the article here), both 30 years ago. And you "forgot" to mention that they are that old. Leaving out such information is exactly what consitutes the difference between reporting and propaganda.
CESNUR isn't really a reliable source. It is the hobby of Massimo Introvigne. Shupe maybe one per WP:RS, although what he writes is propaganda, so it should be taken with care. I'd put him in the same class as Peter Duesberg. --Tilman 00:01, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
That is your opinion. Nevertheless he has all the rights, privledges and credentials as a scholar/RS. Your opinions are not Wikipedia policy. He is still a recognized scholar despite your opinions. Your opinions about CESNUR are again your opinion. That fact is that many scholars go to their conferences to present articles there. It looks like we have a conflict of interest here. It is a little more than a hobbyJohn196920022001 00:19, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, you have one CoI, since CESNUR.org is the only organisation that has published your essay. --Tilman 07:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I moved two paragraphs from the Criticism section to the Mind Control section. It does not fit well to have comments in favor of Hassan placed in the Criticism section.John196920022001 02:02, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

You removed again the dates - so you prefer not to mention that these allegations happened 30 years ago. That is a classic propaganda technique. --Tilman 07:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CESNUR

Various protagonists above say either that CESNUR is a reliable source, or that it is not. There does not seem to be a consensus among scholars about CESNUR. The Wikipedia article on CESNUR cites a number of criticisms from scholars:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CESNUR#Criticism_and_response

'Miguel Martinez questions CESNUR's claimed neutrality by referring to its closeness to the conservative Alleanza Cattolica [2] and alleges that CESNUR is censoring critical websites. [3]
'Scholars Stephen A. Kent and Raffaella Di Marzio consider CESNUR's representation of the brainwashing controversy one-sided, polemical and sometimes without scholarly value. [4][5]
'In an official OSCE report, Dick Marty, Swiss senator and member of the OECD Committee on Legal Affairs and Human Rights, does not consider uncorroborated information from CESNUR reliable : ...[6]'

Given that a number of references in the Hassan article seem to stem from CESNUR or from CESNUR members or associates, would it not be more NPOV to mention somewhere in the Hassan article that CESNUR is a controversial source, and not universally admired. Either that or put a

 The neutrality of this article is disputed.
Please see the discussion on the talk page.(December 2007)
Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved.

tag at the head of the article? EmmDee 15:12, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The best thing to do is provide a link in the Shupe article to the wikipedia entry on Shupe John196920022001 23:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

John's problem is that he doesn't understand that Wikipedia is not the place for his campaign against Steve Hassan. His ommission, despite having been pointed to him, of the dates makes it hard to assume WP:AGF. Also, the CESNUR source doesn't add much. The Roselle case is already mentioned in the article. The other case isn't really documented at the CESNUR website. The CESNUR article isn't even about Steve Hassan. Finally, Steve Hassan has already admitted himself that he participated in involuntary deprogramming long ago - so what?
For me, CESNUR is a source that should be taken with great care. I'm not automatically excluding it, but I'm cautious. --Tilman 15:58, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure Hassan is not "universally admired" by some of the people who's kidnappings he partcipated in. BabyDweezil 16:04, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
1) I did not claim this. 2) Hassan has never been indicted or convicted of kidnapping. Thus, per WP:BLP, I ask you to stop accusing him of any crimes. --Tilman 16:07, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Too late, the people who's kidnappings he participated in already accused him--see the article. BabyDweezil 16:18, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
No, that isn't what the article tells. Second, wikipedia is not a reliable source for wikipedia. Third, an accusation is just that. Fourth, none of these people has claimed to have filed a criminal complaint. Fifth, an affidavit outside of a legal proceeding has no legal value. But I suspect you knew all this anyway. --Tilman 17:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
That is not true, Tilman. You can sign a document under penalty of perjury or have it notorized even if it does not go to court. I complained to a domain registrar a few months ago about a member's alteration of some pictures I had taken. I was required to send a letter to the domain registrar and sign it under pernalty of perjury. These documents have legal value, but were made outside of court. John196920022001 03:18, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I could sign a paper under penalty of perjury that I am 10 feet tall and notarize it. Still, no law enforcement would send me to jail for perjury. It is just a paper. Notarizing something is just about making sure that a statement was made at a certain time, place and by a specific person. --Tilman 20:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The scholar mentioned publishes papers in other journals and conferences too. The paper cited on the CESNUR site was actually from a conference other than CESNUR. John196920022001 07:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
1) I don't "cover up" - this is a proven lie. Because I explained you several times already that the Roselle case IS ALREADY IN THE ARTICLE. And there are tons of negative information about him in the article already, and I never attempted to remove it, despite WP:BLP. I even let your own poor-quality CESNUR publication stay for months, until someone else pointed out that it contained a blatant falsehood (by ommission of the context). The honorable thing to do would be either to correct, or to retract your paper at CESNUR.
2) What search in which scholarly databases did you make to prove that "Hassan has never presented a research paper for scholarly peer review", or did you "just allege it"?
3) How is this relevant? Most people portrayed in wikipedia haven't presented a research paper for scholarly peer review.
4) I don't have to be an expert on propaganda to see when someone is lying by ommission. (That an event happened 30 years ago, or that Hassan spoke out against forcible deprogramming right before the segment you were quoting against him) --Tilman 07:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I AM NOT LYING! By the way the sholarly database that I checked is EBSCOhost John196920022001 03:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
a)John, would it be possible to answer all four points? Or should I, in the future, only make a single argument at a time? You only answered (2), and partly (4) (where you just denied, without making an argument of your own). So I am waiting for the answers to 1) and 3) and 4).
b) I am unable to access EBSCOhost. Please provide a screenshot of your search input and the result. Note also that Hassan is sometimes written Steve Hassan and sometimes Steven Hassan. (Although I don't understand how this is relevant, see 3 above) --Tilman 15:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


I have reverted your edits:

  1. You deleted the dates again, making it possibly appear that the alleged participation in _involuntary_ deprogrammings from 30 years ago are current. That, as explained to you twice already, is lying by omission and thus propaganda.
  2. You deleted him testifying for congress without explaining why;
  3. You deleted a mention of his two books without explaining why;
  4. You added several unsourced statements, e.g. "others allege he is not a reliable source" - that is not what the CESNUR article says. Your statement in the summary "Hassan is also mentioned in other court transcripts in that article other than those two deprogrammings" is not supported by any sources. How is he mentioned? Where? Is it an article or a court transcript? A transcript of what?
  5. You wrote in the edit summary "Do not touch edit!". Guess what: I _did_ touch it, because it did not satisfy several wikipedia requirements: WP:NPOV, WP:RS, WP:BLP, WP:V.
  6. I don't mind that you moved sections per your peer review argument that you posted below, and I will try to do so myself. But don't delete them.

As explained to you before - Wikipedia is not the place for a campaign against a person. Whatever your personal problem with Steve is, Wikipedia is not the solution.

I strongly suggest that, in the future, you propose any edits here first. "Be bold" does not apply for unsourced statements. You CAN insert negative material; however, it has to be well-sourced, and it can't be your own opinions, and must be presented in a neutral way. --Tilman 15:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peer Review

I asked for an honest peer review a couple of days ago. Please check the the peer review section at the top of the page. It gives some good suggestions about the whole article. This bickering about one item is pointless. Just provide a link to the Wikipedia article on CESNUR. John196920022001 07:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

You inserted that item, did you forget? I also suspect that you don't know what peer review is. It also means others evaluating your work. Which I did. Live with it and learn. Wikipedia is not the place for propaganda against a person whom you don't like. --Tilman 08:01, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
You are not a NPOV John196920022001 00:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Of course I am not a NPOV. WP:NPOV is not a word that can be applied to a person. NPOV describes a way of writing texts. --Tilman 15:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


Item 1: The Automated peer review says that the opening is too long. I recommend that much of the information in the opening me moved to one of the headings John196920022001 04:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

What "Automated peer review"?? Anyway, since this is a good idea, I moved a segment, without making changes. --Tilman 15:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MedCab case

Hi all. I'm currently mediating a case into which this article is involved.

Every editor can see how's going the mediation and voice his opinion here.

For a successful mediation, I need to hear every position and its arguments.

In order to keep mediation-related stuff all together, I prefer if we discuss on the mediation page rather than here.

I'm at your disposal for every question.


Happy editing,

Snowolf(talk)CONCOI - 18:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

John, please explain here why you put the POV tag, or I will remove it.

As I see it, both viewpoints, pro or con, are properly represented. --Tilman 06:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)d

This is based on EmmDee's comment a day or two ago John196920022001 07:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
But EmDee wanted to remove CESNUR. So you now agree it is POV to have CESNUR ?! --Tilman 17:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually EmDee said "Either that or put a" POV tag. I believe that because of the two camps present here that it is a POV issue John196920022001 06:29, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I was refering to a comment by John B. Brown, which was IIRC sourced from a CESNUR publication. Currently Brown's comment has been deleted from the article, so its a bit academic now. It seemed to me that Brown's comment was based on selective quotation, and was sourced from CESNUR, so I suggested that either CESNUR should be flagged as a controversial and not necessarily reliable and NPOV source (based on three critical cites from the Wiki article on CESNUR), or that the article should be given a POV tag.

But since Brown's comment has now been deleted, and because I can't currently spot any (possibly POV) comments from CESNUR, the above no longer applies, and I tend to think therefore that the POV tag is a bit overkill at present. The article is IMO not that far from a more-or-less balanced account, given the field of cults/NRMs etc. is prettty controversial anyway.

But the article still needs some tweaking IMO eg. the final sentence of the introductory paragraph reads: '... therapeutic approaches for counseling former members in order to help them overcome the purported effects of cult membership.' That 'purported' seems a bit of a weasel word, and should be replaced with 'reported'. After all, if you went to your doctor complaining of chest pains or depression or whatever, you'ld be a bit put out if the doctor referred to your 'purported' symptoms.

The account of the Roselle affidavits in the Criticism/ Deprogramming section seems ambiguously written and potentially misleading, but I don't have time to try a re-write just now.

The sentence further down in the Criticism/ Deprogramming section, which reads: 'However, in Combatting Cult Mind Control, he states that deprogrammings can be kept as a last resort if all other attempts fail.[26]', still seems a bit unbalanced to me. (Brown's comment used to follow this sentence, but has been deleted). It should read something like: 'However, in Combatting Cult Mind Control, he states that deprogrammings can be kept as a last resort if all other attempts fail, although he himself has "decided not to participate in forcible interventions."[26]' EmmDee 19:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Nevertheless, CESNUR is an academic organization. As long as you consider an academic organization as not an RS, I will question the neutrality of this article. I am sure there is a Wikipedia article on CESNUR. Simply link the CESNUR quote to the CESNUR Wikipedia article. I am not saying I agree with everything that CESNUR has stated or everything that has been written at a CESNUR conference, but they are still an academic community subject to academic peer review. Many of the researchers who have contributed to CESNUR have contributed articles elsewhere too. I have already discussed this with another academic, and I am also a member of the academic community as a graduate level student. By definition, I am an RS and the only credible way to call attention to me is to cite another RS that specifically mentions my research, but not to consider me an RS just because of one affiliation is biased and simply wrongJohn196920022001 05:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
After a careful refelction I agree with EmmDee that to list the whole article as a NPOV issue is "overkill" since it is only one section that being debated. I have relisted the Criticism section as a NPOV-Section John196920022001 02:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request

I politely request that involved editors refrain from editing the "Controversy" section until informal meditation is resolved. Continuing the edit dispute that has been ongoing will not resolve the dispute. Let's work through this dispute, rather than continue to escalate it. Thank you. Vassyana 12:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Qualifications

Cambridge College's website indicates that in 1985 their M.Ed was an unaccredited distance course. I've tried unsuccessfully to get clarification from the college on this matter. Could somebody in the US (I'm not) contact them and establish this please? If I missed this in archived talk, my apologies. --Insider201283 22:14, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Can you give the link to that comment on the college's web site? As much as I disagree with Hassan's approaches, this is something that needs to be thoroughly verified before it is published. In his favor, he is a nationally certified coumselor. Something does not add up John196920022001 03:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I reverted what the IP did. I don't see any source that the college is "mail order", or that it was unaccredited at that time. Two articles about the topic, one positive, one negative: [4][5] --Tilman 17:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)