Talk:Steve Stavro
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[edit] Steve stavro was Macedonian
Accoring to this news article from the Toronto Sun[1] he was born in Gabresh in the Kostursko region of Aegean Macedonia
According to the Canadian goverment Steve Stavro was born in Gabresh Macedonia. [2] [3] [4]
According to the international REUTERS news service he was born in Macedonia[5] [6]
According to CTV television Steve Stavro was born in Gabresh, Macedonia[7]
According to the Globe and Mail Steve Stavro was Macedonian [8]
There is no source anywhere that says he was Greek.
Alexander the great1 14:55, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
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- There is no source that describes him as "ethnic Greek" or born in Greece. The Globe and Mail article says that he was a Canadian Macedonian born, not Greek born. The Government Documents say he was born in Macedonia. The Toronto Sun article says he was born in Aegean Macedonia. The reason they know this is because that is what Stavro said. They all say born in Macedonia, not Greece. Nowhere does it say that he was born in Greece.Alexander the great1 15:13, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- There are no sources anywhere that say he was Greek or born on Greece that is why we need to stick to the sources that exist that say he was Macedonian.Alexander the great1 15:18, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- There is no source that describes him as "ethnic Greek" or born in Greece. The Globe and Mail article says that he was a Canadian Macedonian born, not Greek born. The Government Documents say he was born in Macedonia. The Toronto Sun article says he was born in Aegean Macedonia. The reason they know this is because that is what Stavro said. They all say born in Macedonia, not Greece. Nowhere does it say that he was born in Greece.Alexander the great1 15:13, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Well, you said it yourself - he was born in Macedonia (Greece)not in the Republic of Macedonia. That makes him a Greek citizen or as in this case - a Greek Canadian. If you have a problem with the naming read again the Macedonia naming dispute and the Macedonia (region) articles them reverting again. --Laveol T 15:31, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
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- He never referred to himself as Greek. No source says that he is Greek. What you reverted was an exact quote. You have no sources to back up your ideas.Alexander the great1 15:41, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
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- Ok, I take this, but it nowhere says that he was an ethnic Macedonian. I just rewrote it to make it clear he was born in Greece. In the region of Macedonia, yes, but in Greece --Laveol T 16:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- Nowhere outside of Wikipedia is there this confusion with ethnic and non ethnic Macedonians. Unless someone is identified as Greek Macedonian, Bulgarian Macedonian or Albanian Macedonian, the person is just Macedonian and therefore Ethnic Macedonian. If I say I am Macedonian that means that I am just that a Macedonian, an ethnic Macedonian. If someone does not identify as Macedonian rather Greek or Bulgarian Macedonian then they are not ethnic Macedonian. Alexander the great1 16:15, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- Did you even see the articles you should read on the matter - yes, there is a confusion when you say Macedonian.
- Ok, I take this, but it nowhere says that he was an ethnic Macedonian. I just rewrote it to make it clear he was born in Greece. In the region of Macedonia, yes, but in Greece --Laveol T 16:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Since none of the sources describe him as an "ethnic Macedonian" I have reverted to Laveol's version, and also changed the characterization of Alexander the Great. If Stavro identified himself as an "ethnic Macedonian" surely a source can be found that says so. --Akhilleus (talk) 18:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
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- There is no source anywhere in the world where he is identified as an "ethnic Greek". Alexander the great1 22:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- And quite appropriately, the article doesn't make that claim. --Akhilleus (talk) 22:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- There is no source anywhere in the world where he is identified as an "ethnic Greek". Alexander the great1 22:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Now Greece has many minorities, you know that. Turks, Albanians, Vlachs, Macedonians. Steve was a Macedonian, from what is now Greece. Uuttyyrreess 03:40, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
THIS SOURCE SAYS HE IS AN ETHNIC MACEDONIAN (GLOBE AND MAIL NEWSPAPER)[9] Uuttyyrreess 03:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
It says: It's worth noting that Steve Stavro, majority owner of the Gardens, and John Bitove Jr., who is running the tourney, are ethnic Macedonians
[edit] Globe and Mail
The citation on the opening sentence is for an article from Aug 5, 1994. You can't access the link unless you have access to Lexis-Nexis, but I've read the article and I can confirm that it's the same text as the link that UUttyyrreess supplied to the MAKNWS-L listserv. However, the article shouldn't link to the mailing list post, because it's a copyright violation.
The article is not the greatest source in the world, because it's a sports article, and I don't trust sportswriters to get politically charged stories right; and the story doesn't quote Stavro, so we don't know on what basis he's said to be Macedonian. (I don't even trust them to properly report sports news.) However, in the absence of an indication that Stavro self-identified as Greek or Greek Canadian, the Globe and Mail article justifies saying that Stavro was "Macedonian Canadian". --Akhilleus (talk) 15:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
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- I have attributed the claim to this article. We need something more reliable to remove the attribution. Mr. Neutron 15:37, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- What do you mean by "more reliable"? A direct quote, or something? --Akhilleus (talk) 15:38, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- You said it "I don't trust sportswriters to get politically charged stories right". An interview or proper biography will be better. Mr. Neutron 15:41, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- What do you mean by "more reliable"? A direct quote, or something? --Akhilleus (talk) 15:38, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- I have attributed the claim to this article. We need something more reliable to remove the attribution. Mr. Neutron 15:37, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
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- It doesn’t matter if you trust it or not. It is a article from a World renowned newspaper.Alexander the great1 15:43, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
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- That's all nice, but WP:MOSBIO#Opening_paragraph says that "Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability", and I don't see how it is relevant in this case. Personally, I don't doubt that he's of M... Slavic origin, but it doesn't have particular relevance to his biography anyway. And, I enjoyed this WP:LAME (cf. Nikola Tesla). Duja► 15:40, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- Ethnicity needs to be emphasized in Macedonian articles because there are disputes as you can see.Alexander the great1 15:44, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- That's wikipedian navel-gazing. Who cares of which ethnicity he was? 99% of Canadians and Americans apparently don't. Nor I do see any strong evidence that he himself made it a big deal out of it. Do mention it by all means; just, when I see similar statements in an article intro, my first thought is "Sigh. This article was subject of a nationalistic edit war". Duja► 16:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- Ethnicity needs to be emphasized in Macedonian articles because there are disputes as you can see.Alexander the great1 15:44, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- That's all nice, but WP:MOSBIO#Opening_paragraph says that "Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability", and I don't see how it is relevant in this case. Personally, I don't doubt that he's of M... Slavic origin, but it doesn't have particular relevance to his biography anyway. And, I enjoyed this WP:LAME (cf. Nikola Tesla). Duja► 15:40, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
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Mr. Neutron an administrator has already said that the source is good. Why do you continue making disputes and causing conflict. Alexander the great1 15:50, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- Neutron's rewrite is fine with me. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:52, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
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- There is no need to say the newspaper name twice as it is repetitive. It is listed in the note. Alexander the great1 15:54, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- The point of giving the newspaper's name in the article text is to indicate that it comes from a particular source and is not unquestionable fact. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:56, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- It is a pretty exceptional claim that he is an ethnic Macedonian, and a sports article is hardly going to convince everyone. Plus it is the interpretation of the authors of the article, not his majesty declaring it himself. Mr. Neutron 15:57, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- It is not a pretty exceptional claim that he is an ethnic Macedonian because all sources say he was (see my links above). There is no news article in the world that says that he is "ethnic greek" or "Greek Macedonian"Alexander the great1 16:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
- There is no need to say the newspaper name twice as it is repetitive. It is listed in the note. Alexander the great1 15:54, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] ethnicity of Steve
Lets analyze the articles given to view Steve's ethnicity: 1)http://www.macedonianlife.com/article.aspx?artid=00440041-0041-0041-4100-310037004400 Lets see, this is a THE 64th ANNUAL MACEDONIAN OPEN GOLF TOURNAMENT, who is it sponsored by? Nooo... it can't be?! "low gross - sponsored by Steve & Sally Stavro." Greek Macedonians would NEVER sponsor an ethnic Macedonian event! Maktruth (talk) 05:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
2) http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061231.wspt-obit-list1231/GSStory/GlobeSports/?pageRequested=all "Steve Stavro, 78. The Macedonian-born grocery magnate kept a low profile"... it is SO obvious he is ethnic Macedonian Maktruth (talk) 05:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
