Talk:Stephen III of Moldavia

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[edit] Birthdate/Birthplace?

1) There's something strange about Stephen's birthdate: in the body of the article is given as ca. 1437, while in the cameo is given as 1443. They can't be both true.

2) Now, we know that he took part - alongside his cousin Vlad Tepes - at the Battle of Crasna in 1450, where his father, Bogdan defeated an invading Polish army. I doubt that his father would let him fight the Poles at the tender age of 7, and even at 13 (even if this is not unheard of; in those times teenager heirs apparent were sometimes taken along by their fathers when campaigning).

3) We also know that legend, folklore and oral tradition has it that Stephen spent (at least part of) his childhood at Borze?ti, but are there any reliable sources attesting that he was actually born there?

4) Any ideas how to solve these inconsistencies?

He was born in 1433. As for the article, it is Dahn's resonsibility. --Thus Spake Anittas 23:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Can you ask him to fix it? I don't want to do it by myself... Also, can you point to any sources for the birthyear?
Anittas was making one of his trademark remarks, of which he assumes are clever. I only copyedited the article at some point, and kept doing various edits that I saw as urgent. There is nothing to prevent you from editing the article or any other, so feel free to.
Oh, and: you will find characters with diacritics in your edit window, as clickable icons (just scroll down in your window after clicking "edit", and you'll find them there). Dahn 15:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Basarab Dynasty

I read Stefan cel Mare, Mircea cel Batran, John Hunyadi, Vlad Tepes and Michael the Brave were all from the Basarab dynasty. I think it would be interesting for people to know that Matthias Corvinus and Stefan cel Mare were relatives. -- criztu

Stefan cel Mare was from the Musatin family.
Yes, but apparently Stephen and Vlad were cousins. Also, Stephen's mother, Maria-Oltea, seems to have been of Wallachian origins. See http://old.jurnalul.ro/articol.php?id=42596 (in Romanian).

[edit] Article Name

Shouldn't this article be at Stephen the Great instead of Ştefan cel Mare according to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)? See Michael the Brave instead of Mihai Viteazul as well. Olessi 04:29, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

According to the naming conventions this article could also be at Stephen III of Moldavia or Stefan III of Moldavia (based on List of Moldavian rulers). Olessi 04:02, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Certainly it should not be where it is. I might prefer Stephen the Great, Prince of Moldavia. Without the Moldavia qualifier, I don't think most english-speakers would have any idea who he is. john k 21:49, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

That would make more sense than simply Stephen the Great. To play devil's advocate, however, Frederick the Great is found at Frederick II of Prussia, not Frederick the Great, King of Prussia. However, I do prefer your suggestion. Olessi 22:41, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
I think John Kenney's suggestion is a good one. Another possibility is Stephen the Great of Moldavia. Also, all of the other reasonable possibilities should be either redirects or disambiguations. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:08, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Kings and Emperors (and equivalents) are currently treated differently on wikipedia from holders of lesser titles. john k 06:13, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Him being an independent ruler (at least for some of the time), I would prefer the title Stephen III of Moldavia, with a lead like this:

Stephen III of Moldavia, also called Stephen the Great (Romanian: Ştefan cel Mare) or Stephen Muşat III (Borzeşti, 1433 – Suceava, 1504-07-02) was a voivod (prince) of Moldova (1457-1504), who won renown in Europe for his long resistance against the Ottoman Empire.

In any case, the link to Romanian language would be nice, since not all readers will know what language they speak in Moldavia. KissL 08:33, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

He was known as Stephen the Great; the pope called him that and the different chronicler called him that. In other ennyclopedies, he is also referred to as Stephen the Great. Example:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/S/StphnG1rt.asp

Even Hungarians call him that. Now, Americans want to change his well-deserved title. Figures... --Anittas 13:08, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

The title of the article and the name we call that particular person is not the same thing, don't draw hasty conclusions. Nobody wants to change the name throughout the article, or in any other articles that link here. I personally prefer article titles that fit with the rest of the encyclopedia (as is the case with Frederick the Great). Also, Stephen the Great redirects here. (On the net, Stephen I of Hungary is sometimes referred to as Stephen the Great, but that's not a name we use in Hungary; our first king is usually simply called "King St. Stephen". So nothing against the redirect.)

We could say something like this then:

Stephen III of Moldavia, also called Stephen Muşat III (Borzeşti, 1433 – Suceava, 1504-07-02) was a voivod (prince) of Moldova (1457-1504), who won renown in Europe for his long resistance against the Ottoman Empire. He became known as Stephen the Great (Romanian: Ştefan cel Mare).

KissL 15:54, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

That sounds like a good suggestion, Kissl. Michael the Brave could be improved with the same formula (Michael II of Wallachia etc.). What does Muşat mean? Anittas, I don't understand your quick assumption. We are discussing possible replacements for "Ştefan cel Mare". Louis VIII the Lion is at Louis VIII of France, Peter the Great is at Peter I of Russia, Catherine the Great is at Catherine II of Russia, Louis the Great is at Louis I of Hungary etc. The only leaders that I have found that do not follow this policy are from the Dark Ages and earlier: Charles the Bald, Charles the Fat, Henry the Fowler, Alexander the Great etc. Based on these standards, Stephen the Great should be at Stephen III of Moldavia, while Michael the Brave should be at Michael II of Wallachia. Olessi 20:02, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Summary


Does anyone object if I move this article to Stephen III of Moldavia (with listing of Stephen the Great and Ştefan cel Mare in the intro)? Olessi 17:13, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Can the requested move to Stephen the Great be cancelled? --Scott Davis Talk 08:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

A few days ago Bogdangiusca had said that he was going to take a look at the topic. I would like to wait until he gives his opinion before any decisions are made. If consensus is reached here after the request is removed from the Requested Moves page, I can just post it again, right? Olessi 14:55, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I'll move it into the "clarification" section near the bottom of the page - post clarification there when you have it (and let me know on my talk) and I'll sort it, if no-one gets there before me. Rob Church Talk 20:57, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

two weeks no objections to the name "Stephen III of Moldavia" So I've moved it. However I have edited the articles which had names like "Stefan the Great" "Stephen the Great" to etc rather than change the redirects. So only "Stephen the Great", "Stefan cel Mare" as well as the previous page name "Ştefan cel Mare" redirect here. So if anyone objects strongly and wants to reverse the move, or move it to another page name, they only have to chage a maximum of three redirect. -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:21, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the article should be left at Stefan cel Mare as in the romanian name making it far more accurate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.61.182 (talk • contribs)

Bummer...I felt all warm and fuzzy inside when this article used the Romanian name. I suppose, however, that naming conventions need to be upheld... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Themill (talk • contribs)

[edit] Battleflag

link here: http://media.ici.ro/history/brod_t.htm

[edit] Citations/footnotes

This article is missing citations and footnotes. To meet Wikipedia's style guidelines and to conform to policies regarding neutral point of view, original research, and verifiability, please provide appropriate inline citations and/or footnotes. When this has been significantly complished, the {{citations missing}} should be removed from the article. For more information about footnotes, see Wikipedia:Footnotes#How to use. --Alcohol120 12:56, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] One of the first to gain a decisive victory

I changed "the first to inflict a decisive victory over the Ottomans" to "one of the first to gain a decisive victory over the Ottomans," because that's a better way of putting it and because Hunyadi won a decisive battle at Belgrade almost 20 years before Stephen. Stephen's victory halted Mehmed's expansion into Europe from the Balkans, but it was Hunyadi's victory that allowed the Balkans, and in fact all of Europe, any strategic defense at all. That is not to say that Stephen's victory was not important. Tactically it was the worst defeat Mehmed ever suffered, but it strategically it was not as decisive as the siege of Belgrade.Shield2 21:20, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The Siege of Belgrade was a victory, but not a decisive one. It was an important one, but I can't say how important it really was compared to Vaslui. Both positions threatened the Catholic border. --Thus Spake Anittas 21:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC)