Talk:Stephen Báthory of Poland

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article incorporates text from the Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition, now in the public domain.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]

Please rate the article and, if you wish, leave comments here regarding your assessment or the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
Poland Portal
Stephen Báthory of Poland is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Poland on Wikipedia. To participate simply edit the article or see our current projects and discussions. On the main project page we have some tools to help you out. Don't hesitate to ask questions!
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale.
Stephen Báthory of Poland is within the scope of WikiProject Lithuania, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Lithuania on Wikipedia. To participate simply edit the article or see our to-do list. On the project page we have some tools to help you out. Don't hesitate to ask questions!
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
High This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.
Comments Please leave a short summary to explain the ratings and to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
WikiProject Hungary
Hungary Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hungary, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Hungary. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article or you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks or take part in the discussion.
??? This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the Project's quality scale.
??? This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the Project's importance scale.
Comments:

Contents

[edit] Elder

Danzig succesfully defended against Bathory??!?!?? I would prefer Gdnaks name too, if we call Lithuanian city by Vilnius...[[user::szopen|szopen]]

Maximilian's army was defeated at Krakow, Parzymiechy, and Byczyna. He was caught and held prisoner. When released, he still was usurping title of Polish king.

The 66.47 idea that he was not interested is ridiculous. If he was not interested, why he entered Poland with army in first place!! Szopen

[edit] Name

I think our royal name policy needs to be adjusted with respect to kings of Poland. This guy is universally known as Stefan (or Stephen) Bathory. Similarly, Jan or John Sobieski. Stanislas Poniatowski. I'm not sure what the advantage of putting them in positions like this is. Anyone else have thoughts? john k 21:39, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In my opinion names of Kings of Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth (That's not same as "King of Poland") should be written in both lithuanian and polish languages or only in his native language.
Ex. : Žygimantas Augustas, Zygmunt II August I and Jonas Sobieskis, Jan III Sobieski or leave only Žygimantas Augustas and Jan III Sobieski. Same with Batoras. We should write his name in three languages or leave only hungarian.
I wanted to clean the mess with both Stevens B. put in the same article. Ideally, this article should be at Stefan Batory and the other at where it is now, but the Stefan Batory article has an edit history longer than one line (two lines actually...) and the move function did not work. I believe we should either ask one of the admins to move this article to where it belongs or leave it here.
Moved; cf. István Báthory. Mikkalai 07:05, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And the policy someone chose for the Polish kings (there was some discussion on this topic some time ago) is not very sensible IMO, but at least it is consistent. I've never heard of Stanislaw August Poniatowski referred to as Stanislaus II of Poland, but at least that name is consistent with the others. That's why I chose Stefan I of Poland as a (temporary?) name. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 06:28, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Kings of Poland template

Lysy, I don't see you communicating on the talk page here, either. At any rate, the Kings of Poland templates are inappropriate, as are all the Polish officeholder templates. We don't do such templates for any other officeholders, and there is no reason to do it for Polish kings. Why does having a list of all Polish kings add to the article on an individual Polish king? Why isn't a succession box sufficient? john k 15:07, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, you removed it silently on April 25th. I think it would be appropriate if you explained this before you removed the template. I find the template useful, as it puts t\he monarch in a better historical context. I also don't see any harm it makes and cannot understand why you keep removing it even if I'm sure you're aware that no consensus was reached on this. Forcing your views is not the best way of conduct on WP. Could you explain what is that you find offending in this template. I'm sure more people would appreciate it if you could contribute to the article in a positive way instead of deleting content that you don't like for some reason, especially when you know that other people find it useful. In the meantime, I would like to ask you to refrain from removing the template before a consensus is reached to do so. Lysy 17:19, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
There are procedures for this - namely Wikipedia:Templates for deletion. I don't think that the argument 'others don't have them, so those few that have them should be downgraded as well' is valid. True, most of the relevant articles are stubs and thus the templates stand out, but eventually they will be expanded to large size and the templates will be barely noticable. Of course, the templates can be divided without losing much content - for example into Piasts, Jagiellons and elected kings. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:08, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

The current policy on article series boxes is such: "For very long series, it is preferable to use incumbent series, which only show the elements of the series immediately preceding and succeeding the article." - Wikipedia:Categories,_lists,_and_series_boxes. The Kings of Poland template clearly falls under this rubrik. By removing the template, I was following current policy. At the very, very least the template needs to be broken up. Can I also note that I removed the template for every prime minister of Poland, every president of Poland, and every King of Poland after Stephen (as well as Henry III of France), and nobody objected except to this one page? john k 20:18, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

At the very, very least the template needs to be present in the very article relevant to it. I.e. the 'kings of Poland' template should definetly be used in the kings of Poland article. If you go on removing template spree, make sure you leave (or add) it to the main article, ok? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:41, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I didn't remove it from any main articles, just the articles on individual officeholders, although I did just nominate them for deletion - the information could easily be moved from the template to the main article, if the conclusion is that they shouldn't be on the individual pages. john k 02:37, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Again, it's a good and polite practice not to remove contents when you see that others find useful. If you don't like the template, then VFD is the way to go instead. Please hold on with your deleting until it's resolved there. Lysy 08:30, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


Hallo, I have a problem with the current name.

Sure it fits with the practice of Polish kings currently applied. However, there happen to be 12 men called Stephen Báthory (sure not all deserve an article but there already exist two others and one is to come).

Therefore I would suggest renaming this page either Stephen Báthory, King of Poland (per the naming coventions that prefers the highest-ranking title for reigning monarchs).

I don't mind using either the Polish Batory or the Hungarian Báthory spelling - but I don't think that the minute difference the Polish spelling provides is enough to distinguish him from his eleven namesakes.Str1977 (smile back) 07:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. We could alternately move to Stephen of Poland, although I prefer your suggestion. john k 16:13, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Should we spell it Batory or Báthory? Str1977 (smile back) 17:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I've tended to see the Hungarian spelling more frequently. john k 00:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. Please use WP:RM and wait longer before moving the article. Stefan Batory is used in 800 publications; Stephen Báthory in only 200.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  03:34, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Do you have any positive reason (aside from counting book titles, many probably in Polish which of courses uses the Polish name) for reverting it? Would you address the reasons raised above?
But I will follow your advise and request the move. Str1977 (talk) 21:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that Stephen of Poland is the better option as most monarchs are styled with just heir regnal name and the country of rule. Adding in King of Poland is slightly redundant and inconsistent with most of the monarchs within wikipedia's mainspace.
–Whaleyland ( Talk • Contributions ) 17:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

What about Stephen Batory of Poland? --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (tαlk) 23:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I would support that, although Stephen Báthory of Poland might be a bit better. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

  • Stefan Batory → Stephen Báthory, King of Poland —(Discuss)— This person is the most famous but still only one of all in all 12 people called "Stephen Báthory" (not all will get articles but four already have) - to improve the distinction between all these Stephens I suggest to use numerals for all of them but this here, as he is special as King of Poland - therefore the inclusion of the title, which is in line with naming convention which prefer the use of the highest ranking title for reigning monarchs. Simply using the Polish spelling Stefan Batory (which in itself I don't mind) IMHO is not enough to distinguish him from his eleven namesakes. This move was already agreed upon on talk but recently reverted. Str1977 (talk) 21:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC) completed 09:50, 17 August 2007

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

  • Oppose, because I don't think that inclusion of Poland in the name is the best choice as this person was important not only in Poland but also in Lithuania, Romania. M.K. 18:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
But Stephen Báthory of Poland, Lithuania and Transylvania (Romania didn't exist then) is not a feasible title. But the disambiguation problem remains. Str1977 (talk) 08:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Partial support We should spell Stephen, but King is unnecessary, and contrary to WP:NCNT, which also recommends use of one Kingdom for the holders of multiple crowns; Henry IV of France, not Henry IV of France and Navarre. I think Báthory is more common in general; is it more common for the subject of this article? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't insist on the word "King". Str1977 (talk) 08:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Any additional comments:

Regarding usage one of the crowns, due to naming convention, we should take into account that it is not set in stone. In other hand I would not oppose to Báthory usage. M.K. 19:07, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

M.K.'s comments about the subject's importance in other countries does not tally with our naming conventions. Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom is also queen of many other countries, for example. All the remaining contributors seem to be happy with the title Stephen Báthory of Poland. This article has been renamed from Stefan Batory to Stephen Báthory of Poland as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 14:35, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title

Stephen Báthory of Poland is awful. When you have "Name Ordinal of Country", it is clear that a monarch is being referred to. "Firstname Surname of Country" is just weird. john k (talk) 22:34, 22 January 2008 (UTC)