Talk:Sten submachine gun

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I've removed: although earlier versions of the STEN could be modified so as to hang the magazine vertically - ??! Only MP-3008 had vertical magazine Pibwl 12:29, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The Sten mark I and IIs had a sprung-loaded catch in front of the magazine housing that allowed the magazine assembly to be rotated down 90 degrees so as to close the ejection port and prevent the ingress of dirt. Ian Dunster 16:51, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Sten or STEN?

I realize that the name is an abbrevation, but I usually see it written in lowercase. Is the all uppercase the 'proper' name? Oberiko 13:00, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Unless anyone objects, I'm going to change the name back from STEN to Sten. Oberiko 12:54, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] STEN MK 3

I am seeking a source for blueprints of the STEN mk 3. Anyone that can point me in the right direction wqould be appricated. I have prints for all of the other STEN variants in my collection but am missing the MK 3. Thanks fred <fredandjulie@bellsouth.net>

[edit] See also section

Normally I would just correct the anaemic See also section, but my change (addition of Submachine gun) has been reverted. I said correct not expand, because even though See also sections don't seem to have concrete rules or guidelines it is described in the manual of style (Wikipedia:Guide_to_layout#See_also) as follows:

Mostly, topics related to an article should be included within the text of the article as free links. The "See also" section provides an additional list of internal links as a navigational aid.

This See also section clearly does not fulfil the only two basic purposes, because the two items listed aren't mentioned in the rest of the article (or explained with a description) and it's clearly not a ...list of internal links... (and therefore everything in a See also section is in a sense superfluous which was the reason given for removing my initial addition).

I think the following improvements would be prudent and more importantly useful:

  • Existing two entries could be explained (why are they related), e.g.
  • Adding additional related topics
Submachine gun appears within the intro. In a general article on submachine guns, a see also to (for instance) semi-automatic pistols wold be appropiate. In a specific item article I would think it should be to related items. For sten this might be the Sterling SMG, or the BSA submachine gun that was another contender to replace it.GraemeLeggett 08:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I know submachine gun appears in the article itself, but it you read the italicised quote from the wiki manual of style, they describe a see also as a summary of all the important related topics (already in the main article). On a football players page you might list their club even though it's probably listed in the introductory paragraph. Once you've read a long article you come to the end and you can see all the related topics you might want to explore further, instead of going back and hunting for them. I would say for a firearm including articles like successors, predecessors and derivates would be important related topics (a short explanation helps a lot), but possibly also the company that manufactured it and the class it belongs to so that if one quickly glances at the see also section only, you can quickly establish what this thing is and where it fits into the world... come on, throw me a bone man :-) Deon Steyn 10:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Carbine Calibres

The introduction describes how a Sten should not properly be described as a carbine. I agree with this but it goes on to characterise a carbine as having "full calibre". This is not the right phrase as the Sten's 9mm rounds are of larger calibre than the rifle rounds which would normally be found in a carbine. The rifle round is, of course, longer and higher velocity than the 9mm. Unfortunately I'm not sure what words to use. "Full power"? "Higher velocity"? Any suggestions? Epeeist smudge 10:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The 9mm round is a pistol round. Nicht Nein! 13:51, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
A quick edit to simplify the sentence and "full calibre" question is not an issue. GraemeLeggett 15:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
This is a British Commonwealth designation. These weapons were carbines under that system. Veritas Panther 06:34, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Video overload?

I'm wondering if we REALLY need 10 youtube videos depicting the STEN? Can't somebody just do their own search if they're interested? The newest one is going to be reverted because it's 2 minutes of other guns.--Asams10 15:35, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sten Change?

Hello, I too am a student of firearms and would like to start a dialog on this subject. This is why I instituted the change in the article.

The change as made to the Sten reference because of a transcript by the co-inventor Colonel Shepherd discussing how it was named when he received an Award from the Board of the Royal Commission Awards to inventors. Lord Cohen: " Why was it called the Sten?" Colonel Shepard" it was called the Sten by the then Director General of Artillery. The "S' was from my name, the "T" from Mr. Turpin who was my draughtsman and who did a very large amount of the design and the "EN" was for England. That is the origin of the name, for which I accept no responsibility."

I believe since he was the co-inventor that you would have to admit that his testimony carries considerable weight in this matter.In reference to the many other sources (including our own Ian Hogg)inthis country(as well as many others I'm sure)there is a saying that just because many people believe in something doesn't make it true. Father Christmas springs to mind. Any way I hope I've explained my change to your satisfaction. If you have any suggestions on how i might better cite this quote let me know I was considering attaching the actual quotions of the transcript to the reference ( Iwill have to muse over how to do that.

Actually, dozens of other references could be wrong, but you'll need to outweigh it with more than a snippet from a book. He could have been mixquoted, could have misspoke, or could have been misleading. The official word still stands. You don't challenge dozens of sources with one that claims to have transcribed an original speech by the co-inventor. If you plan on doing that, take it to discussion first. I'm reverting your dubious claim until you can support it here with a concensus.--Asams10 06:17, 25 July 2007 (UTC

First all from your strong defence I assume that you are the writer of the article and i mean no disrespect you seem quite emotional on the subject, may I say that the article is very well written and obviously a labor of love so please do not assume I am attacking you personally. I am not. I consider myself well read on the Sten and I have never run across anything that has mentioned a source this close to the project. What sources are you refering to. I have read Ian Hogg and Skennerton and Frank Iannamco. I would like to here of others not just because of this debate but because off my love for historical firearms. I think there is slight fault with your logic when you say that dozens of soures say this. You would neeed to look to see that not all the sources stem from a common root. For example Ian Hogg, which as you said does not always have the best track record. Since I have presented my source I would ask two things you and I will stop changing your article a sten gun truce if you will and please give me a list if some of the dozens of other sources to which you refer. I understand this may take time. Also if you take time to read this book and give it your opinion. In other words I'm trading my sources for yours. Maybe you will convince me. Also I'm perplexed by what you mean by the " official word" What officials are speaking of writers such as yourself or some British armory. I think rarely in this world is there an official source for much. I'm assuming that you are not saying that you are an official source since I'm assuming that you were not here at the creation of the firearm. I'm enjoying our discusion and again I apologize if I have in any way provoked you by the changin of your article. I do like having a good intellectual banter such as this. I do realize that probably 90% of the population of the planet does not give a wit about this discussion and this definition. Probably about 50% of the people don't even know what a Sten gun is and I think that is being generous. By the way I belive I am communicating with you in disscussion if I'm not please let me know and I will post this in the proper place. In a minute way I feel like Galilio trying to fight the church. So in closing I will say "It still moves" Also keep an open mind about the book, at PlEASE READ IT you may be pleasantly suprised, I will consider your sources as well. Peter Laidler The Sten Machine Carbine ISBN 0-88935-259-3

I've partially rewritten the article, however the sources I've read are generally in agreement that while people differ, it's accepted that the EN stands for Enfield. I've not personally interviewed but a handful of gun folks, but it's generally agreed that designers are at least as forgetful, boastful, and revisionist as their biographers often are. I believe that it makes sense to use EN to denote Enfield, and not England, as do the vast majority of other sources. --Asams10 09:59, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
If Laidler's Sten book is of the same quality as his Lanchester/Patchett/Sterling title, I would consider it authoritative. Collector Grade Publications' books are uniformly high quality. D.E. Watters 22:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I consider your revision an elegant compromise. Thank you.I still encourage you to read the book as it is very extensive book, 350 pages, many, many primary documents and every bit authoritative as his Lanchester/Patchett/Sterling title as D.E. Watters suggests. Also its just a good read and covers almost every bit of Sten information you would want. If you read it you may decide to change the article as having both the Enfield and England definitions. Also if there are people out there that have read the book please chime in to this discussion and say what your opinion is on the quality of his book and the likelyhood that his transcript is correct. You have restored my faith in the Wikipedia concept. Polisheagle1939 7:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Accidental discharges

The comment about accidental discharges possibly understates the fact. My father was aware of several of these during/just after WW2 (national service 1943-47). One he witnessed was in a German cinema, where the gun was simply placed on the floor and self-discharged. The gun was grabbed by a USA soldier and the magazine somehow removed/blocked, but not before several people were killed. Another was where one self-discharged in the cab of an army lorry, killing or wounding all the occupants.81.86.230.16 (talk) 23:35, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm going to have to raise the BS flag on this one. An accidental discharge with the Sten involves a single shot at which time the bolt locks back. The stories your father heard were likely in the same category as other wartime lore that tends to get soldiers attention but is, in fact, false by design or for whatever reason. This type of information was often spread to scare soldiers into taking proper precautions. I can assure you unequivically that a Sten placed on a hard surface will not 'go wild' and kill multiple people unless they are lined up or some such freak situation. The same cannot be said of the Stoner 63, however. THAT gun will, indeed, go full-auto on its own but the Sten will not. --Asams10 (talk) 00:40, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Still in service

I have seen the Stens to be in service with different Indian Police Forces as recently as 2007, i.e. last year. Can anybody throw some light on that?Shovon 18:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, they are still in service in more places than India. --Asams10 (talk) 21:46, 2 March 2008 (UTC)