Talk:Stefan Czarniecki

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[edit] Jews during the Deluge

The fate of Jews during the Deluge certainly deserves mentioning in Deluge (history) article. If certain communities were affected during notable military operations, the relevant battle/siege/etc. articles should state so. There is no need to add that information to the articles of rulers/military commanders/etc. of that period, unless they were directly responsible/participated in such attrocities.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Every commander is responsible for atrocities committed by his troops. Czarniecki's name is mentioned in every reference. So no whitewashing please. M0RD00R 16:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if he is mentioned in the context, you could as well blame the 17th century, too. It matters whether he is held responsible for it. And none of the sources you provided claim that he did anything then be a leader of the army, during a period in which millions of Commonwealth citizens - inluding hundreds of thousands of Jews - were killed. Czarniecki, however, did not give orders to the troops to kill those citizens. Thus this is not relevant - just as we don't include info on Holocaust losses in biographies of WWII commanders.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:33, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes he is held responsible: Universal Jewish Encyclopedia "Stefan Czarniecki incited a riot in which more than 600 Jews lost their lives", Encyclopaedia Judaica "the Polish general S. Czarniecki persecuted the Jews of Srem". So the ball is on your side to present the sources of his innocence. M0RD00R 16:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Universal Jewish Encyclopedia (1939-1943) and Encyclopaedia Judaica (1971-1972) are not academic sources; they are encyclopedias - commonly based on unreliable, 19th century or older sources and with significant bias. They encountered criticism from prominent scholars for wholesale reprinting of patently outdated entries; ignoring important events and personalities while including entries on figures and events that are (at best) of marginal interest or significance. For example, see critical reviews in the The Jewish Quarterly Review by Solomon Zeitlin (ex.[1]), or the article presented during the Proceedings of the 37th Annual Convention of the Association of Jewish Libraries by David B. Levy (particulary the 'Bias and Unstated Ulterior Assumptions in the JE' and 'Criticisms of the EJ: Zeitlin, Agus, and the Jewish Spectator' chapters in 'THE MAKING OF THE ENCYCLOPAEDIA JUDAICA AND THE JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA' [2]). Of course, those are still valuable sources - but per WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE, for such dubious claims, please show reliable academic sources supporting such claims. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

If we can show that modern scholarly publications attribute some of Jewish suffering during that period to Czarniecki, I do believe we should make a note of that in the article. But a few websites and information about Jewish suffering during that period (partially overlapping with the Chmielnicki Uprising) don't make Czarniecki a "Jewish Butcher".-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Every single statement is sourced prefectly fine with WP:RS. "Few websites" as you are trying to label them, are only electronic versions of published encyclopedias and book by Kandel. M0RD00R (talk) 19:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Reliability of most of your sources was explained above. Not everything that calls itself an encyclopedia is reliable. And who is Kandel? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Your opinion that Jewish encyclopedias fall under WP:FRINGE category is just your opinion. If you have no idea who is Kandel, when I suggest familiarize with subject and sources first, and delete later. M0RD00R (talk) 20:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It is easy to throw filth on any historical person using outdated sources. Reference it with modern academic sources and it will be OK. It still seems to me it is a problem for you. - Darwinek (talk) 20:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

What is with sources used in article that you don't like. They all are modern. And perfectly good according to WP:RS M0RD00R (talk) 20:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Right you want modern sources and so delete
  1. Shmuel Spector, Geoffrey Wigoder The Encyclopedia of Jewish Life Before and During the Holocaust, NYU Press, 2001, p. 259
  2. Waldemar Kowalski, Jadwiga Muszyńska Żydzi wśród chrześcijan w dobie szlacheckiej Rzeczypospolitej, Kieleckie Towarzystwo Naukowe, Wyższa Szkoła Pedagogiczna w Kielcach, Instytut Historii, 1996, p. 212
  3. Pinkas hakehillot Polin by Yad Vashem.
And so on. No comments. M0RD00R (talk) 20:50, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Do those sources call Czarniecki a 'Jewish Butcher'? It seems they just mention that Jews suffered in the Deluge; so did Poles, Lithuanians, Armenians, Germans and others inhabiting the Commonwealth. To blame Czarniecki for deaths of civilians during the war is quite another thing.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Czarniecki was called butcher by Jewish chronicles. This fact was sourced also, but nevertheless it was deleted. I guess mentioning of Czarniecki in Polish National Anthem gives him immunity from WP:RS. M0RD00R (talk) 20:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Between 1648 and 1672 Poland lost more than half of its population. Czarniecki did not care if his troops killed Jews, Polish peasants or Ukrainians, as back then notion of a nation did not exist. Therefore, calling him a butcher is an exaggeration, as all military commanders of that time acted in the same way. As for Jewish cooperation with the Swedes, well, this deserves a note and I will try to provide one. It is interesting that we often hear about pogroms of Jews, but never about reasons of these events. Perhaps user Mordoor would be interested in this subject - why there were pogroms of Jews, but not of Germans or Poles. Tymek (talk) 05:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
For the record, there were those two - or to be specific, pogroms of Protestants (Poles, Germans, etc., with the most prominent being the Arianie). They were targeted since some collaborated with Protestant Swedes. I have never heard however about Jews being singled during the Deluge - but again, this was around the time of Chmielnicki uprising when they were indeed singled by the Cossacks.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 05:52, 11 December 2007 (UTC)