Talk:Steam

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Contents

[edit] Half-Life

(heading added later)--Tunheim 15:24, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Anything about the Valve Half-Life add on here? Mark Richards 22:15, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

  • Put that in the disambiguation page if you want. 32.97.110.142 22:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] steam engines

"atmospheric engines" use the contraciton of the condensation of steam, not its expansion.


To a physicist there's a fair amount of pseudo-science here - eg power produced by steam - hmm hardly - via steam perhaps. And the reason for the attractiveness of steam as a working medium surely lies in the fact that it's condensible so the pumping power at the cold reservoir temperature cen be very low. There should probably be some link out to the Rankine cycle (eg Zemansky, Heat & Thermodynamics, p224). Linuxlad 23:26, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Er, why isn't steam a 'fluid', please? All the standard texts I was brought up on, treat is in the same classification as air... Linuxlad 19:53, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)


On abzisse you must have für Entropie kJ/kg K. Now its without Kelvin.--82.82.236.1 09:44, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • Thanks for that, I fixed it

[edit] Steam, Mist, and Water Vapor

If I understand correctly, steam is gaseous water and when it mixes with air, it's called water vapor. But the "steam" you see above a pot of boiling water is actually liquid water that has condensed when the steam/vapor hit the cooler air above the pot. IF this is correct... then this paragraph is a little misleading:

In common speech, steam most often refers to the white mist that condenses above boiling water as the hot vapor ("steam" in the first sense) mixes with the cooler air. After gaseous steam has intermixed with air, it is no longer properly called steam and is instead referred to as water vapor.

That makes it seem like the stuff you see is water vapor instead of condensed, liquid water.

  • You're right, and I fixed that. This page seems to have a lot of lying-to-children, but the topic has a both a complicated technical understanding, and a wide set of common ideas. There are a lot of common misconceptions about phases of matter and water. I've tried to fix up this page by putting the simple explanations first and the more complicated ones later. 32.97.110.142 22:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I see that this issue has been brought up before with regard to both this page and the water vapor page, so I'm almost afraid to ask, but I can't help it, so here goes: what the hell is the difference between steam and water vapor? I've wondered this for years, and haven't found the answer here, even after reading both pages and a lot of the discussion on the talk pages. Unfortunately neither page even attempts to answer this oft-posed riddle. Xezlec 20:48, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

The difference between steam and water vapor is that water vapor is an invisible gas and steam is a visible mist of liquid droplets.  :-) — Omegatron 01:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I believe your definition is incorrect Omegatron.
  • Steam is "odourless, invisible gas consisting of vaporized water. It is usually interspersed with minute droplets of water, which gives it a white, cloudy appearance." (Encyclopædia Britannica (EB) on steam). So steam in itself is invisible.
  • Water vapor is steam mixed with air or other gases (EB http://search.eb.com/eb/article-9074829)
  • What you see when you puff a small cloud from your mouth in cold weather is neither. It is tiny suspended water droplets, and depending on where they are found can be called fog or cloud. I am not aware of a good general term for water droplets suspended in air.
--Tunheim 15:35, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I realized my above statement was somewhat blunt and categorical. It wasn't meant that way :P (long day...) --Tunheim 15:44, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

It is tiny suspended water droplets, and depending on where they are found can be called fog or cloud. I am not aware of a good general term for water droplets suspended in air.

I think the word you're looking for is "steam". Definition: "A mist of cooling water vapor."  :-) — Omegatron 16:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
My impression is that steam is 100% water while a puff of breath is mainly nitrogen and such does not qualify as steam. Do you have a reference for your definition? --Tunheim 10:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion continued in the "Article split" section. Nurg 04:31, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] counter strike source

Shouldnt there be a direction type page because I was looking for a Steam page as in counter strike source and day of defeat, not this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aushog (talk • contribs) 23:43, 15 December 2006.

[edit] wear vs erosion

I'm no expert on this, but the WP article on erosion is specifically about the action of the weather on geological formations (inc. soil), and hence is not appropriate here. I looked around and found that wear was much closer to the intended meaning, since that article describes the action of both 'solid on solid', but also 'liquid or gas on solid', as intended here.

At present, the link to erosion is utterly wrong. If wear is not correct, it would be better to unlink 'erosion' again.

EdJogg 15:14, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Try 'wet steam' and erosion together in Google. Bob aka Linuxlad 20:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not dispute that 'erosion' is the correct term to use. However, the WP article on erosion, good as it is, does not mention erosion of metal, only the various geological processes, and therefore is not an appropriate link with regard to steam. (And I should know now, as a result of this discussion I've just spent two hours tidying-up that article! Who'd be a WikiGnome?))

The article on 'wear', which is in a much poorer state, is much closer to the meaning of 'erosion' intended here. However, I think the safest course of action for now is to unlink it entirely...so I'll do just that!

EdJogg 01:50, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Well I'd have thought it more logical to disambiguate erosion into the term (often called erosion/corrosion IIRC) as used by engineers for nigh on a hundred years. Bob aka Linuxlad 09:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely – linking the word to the WP article corrosion (which is an engineering article) would be much more appropriate than erosion (which is a geology article). Please check out both articles and see which you think is more appropriate... ...and if you decide that corrosion is more appropriate, I will not complain! :o)

EdJogg 10:24, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Steam invisible?

Uhh, what? Steam is invisible? I was not aware of this.

Edit-Read the part about steam unmixed with air/in a vacuum. Nevermind.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by HolyHandGrenadez (talk • contribs) 00:27, 12 January 2007.

I'm not so sure a picture of a geyser should be on the steam page. Yes, geysers are associated with steam, but the visible cloud shown consists of liquid water droplets that have formed as the water vapor mixes with the cold air, and portrays an incorrect idea of what is happening. -76.4.49.201 03:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article split into "steam" and "water vapor"

No reason for the split suggestion was given so I removed it. --Tunheim 15:42, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The reason given was "the stuff about water vapor doesn't belong here; it already has an article. this article is about the condensed mist". — Omegatron 16:09, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't see that one. I thought it was common to provide the rationale of a clean up template at the discussion page that the template in use points to. But I'm rather new to Wikipedia. Could you enlighten me on this? --Tunheim 10:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree this should not be split. That would just make 2 stubs. Prep111 15:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The word "steam" has at least 2 meanings. I'm not a physicist or chemist but it seems to me they are:
  1. H2O as a gas, ie, the molecules are independent. The gas is invisible. This seems to be the scientific and technical use of "steam". Synonymous with "water vapour" and "dry steam".
  2. H2O as hot droplets of liquid suspended in air and visible. Invisible gas molecules of H2O will also be present. This is the common or popular use. Similar to "wet steam". (Seems to me the difference between wet steam and clouds/fog/mist is just temperature.)
Maybe the answer is:
  1. Move info about the gas from the steam article to water vapor.
  2. Make steam into an article about the hot suspended liquid and rename it wet steam.
  3. Create a disamb page called steam.
I am not expert in the subject so maybe there is a better arrangement.
OED has for steam: "6. a. The vapour into which water is converted when heated. In popular language, applied to the visible vapour which floats in the air in the form of a white cloud or mist, and which consists of minute globules or vesicles of liquid water suspended in a mixture of gaseous water and air. (Also sometimes applied to the vapour arising from other liquids when heated.) In modern scientific and technical language, applied only to water in the form of an invisible gas. The invisible ‘steam’, in the modern scientific sense, is, when its temperature is lowered, converted into the white vapour called ‘steam’ in popular language, and this under continued cooling, becomes ‘water’ in the liquid form. dry steam, in Steam-engine working, steam containing no suspended vesicles of water: opposed to wet steam." Nurg 04:31, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I've never heard the term "wet steam", but it sounds like a pretty good proposal. — Omegatron 06:17, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Referring to the suggested course of action above:
  1. 'Move info about the gas...' Support and provide a clearer top-of-page link to water vapour
  2. 'Make steam ..article about hot suspended liquid...' support
    '...and rename as wet steam' strong oppose – the fact that 100s of pages link to this one is a consideration, but more important is the general WP principle that pages should have the name most commonly identified with the subject. I can imagine many people searching for 'steam', but very few for 'wet steam'.
  3. Create a DAB page oppose. Steam (disambiguation) already exists, making 'steam' a DAB page too seems rather unnecessary.
Steam should include something about 'what steam is' but also cover the practical uses of steam and how it occurs in nature. Water vapour can cover the scientific aspects of the gas. Curiously, this is pretty much the case already. (I checked the two articles AFTER I wrote that, so maybe not much needs to be done after all... :o) )
EdJogg 10:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Nurg, the definition you provided from the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) was very enlightening and makes much sense. However, this doesn't fully clarify the situation of steam vs. water vapor. Would you, or someone else with access to the OED, be able to post the definition of water vapor? --Tunheim 12:10, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
OED: "water-vapour, the invisible aqueous vapour present in the atmosphere" Nurg 03:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. I agree with EdJogg. A disambig link at the top of the Steam article is sufficient. It is the term most commonly associated with the suspended droplets. — Omegatron 19:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

'Wet Steam' seems to be causing some confusion. It is a mixture of the liquid and gaseous phases of H2O (necessarily at boiling point). 'Dry Saturated' steam is pure gaseous phase H2O at boiling point, and as such is more of a theoretical concept than something it is easy to make, as steam is likely either to contain some liquid on the one hand or to be superheated on the other, and dry saturated steam exists only on the infinitesimal boundary between the two. For example, a steam engine is described as either 'superheated' or a 'wet steamer'. Bill F 23:07, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Just want to point out (sorry to belabor the point) that currently, the first paragraph in the steam article states "steam refers to vaporized water. It is a pure, completely invisible gas (for mist see below).", and the words "vaporized water" are a link to the "water vapor" page. The water vapor page then states "Water vapor, also aqueous vapor, is the gas phase of water." This suggests that the two concepts are precisely identical. Can everyone agree that this is incorrect? Xezlec 03:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I am a physicist, and I have to wonder what the hell is wrong with you people. Steam and water vapor are completely distinct. There is no overlap, at all, ever. "Wet steam" is a tautology on the order of "sugary glucose". I have to question the motives and ethical outlook of a group of people who are willing to redefine words in the English language to obfuscate the difference between two different phases of matter. When you have a kettle on the stove, and you can see steam shooting out of it, that's liquid. The water vapor is invisible to the naked eye. --75.49.222.55 03:48, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see what what this discussion has to do with motives and ethical outlook although I have to wonder what the hell is wrong with a Texan physicist who hasn't the courtesy to sign in. Anyway to my knowledge, "wet steam" in common usage is synonymous with saturated steam. --John of Paris 21:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clouds

Maybe we ought to merge clouds and water with water vapor and steam. or maybe not. its the same stuff in different forms, rite? 68.36.214.143 22:53, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

No. — Omegatron 22:58, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, no. - HRS IAM 01:58, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New steam technology

This has just appeared on the talk:Steam car page. However I think it might be more appropriate to discuss it here.--John of Paris 09:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps new steam technology (steam production via the blending of methanol and hydrogen peroxide, instead of simple heating) might again propell steam cars. The technology has been produced by Tiancun Xiao and picked up by Oxford Catalysts
See also: * Oxford Catalysts Portable Steam
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.245.169.144 (talk • contribs) 16:53, 04 September 2007
The above comment may well have been a bit of 'self-promotion' on the part of Oxford Catalysts, but for those interested in the subject it is certainly worth a look. The reaction they have discovered is little short of 'magic'!
Also available from their site is a Press Release (?) apparently written by a freelance science writer. This gives a better idea about the practical applications of this technology. However, I can't help feeling that a spray applicator for domestic cleaning, that operates at room temperature, and produces a jet of steam at 800degC might be a tad dangerous!! (Their website demo video shows steam igniting a piece of paper!!)
The technology is too new to add anything on this page, but if suitable refs can be found, would be a good addition to the steam page...
EdJogg 17:14, 4 September 2007 (UTC)