Talk:Stations list

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Contents 1 Work On The Table 2 Intended additions 3 Totally disputed 4 Studies of the Stations of the Exodus

[edit] Work On The Table

I've reverted a number of place-names to their more common English spellings, since 1) these spelling are more common, 2) the existing sub-articles are spelled that way, and 3) Sephardic pronunciation was probably the original anyway. Many thanks to whoever completed the references and place-names for the table, nonetheless. I suspect most Jewish readers will be pleased with the progress of scholarship in the Wikipedia on this subject, even so.

I've added "- -" to all the cells of the table that do not have information as yet, since otherwise only half the table would display. If a place is investigated, and its location is found to be uncertain, it should be given a "?" instead, at that time. --ThaThinker 20:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Thats not very helpful in identifying their locations. The names provide huge amounts of information when read in context in the languages that named them. Unless you think English was the original language of the Exodus and best preserves ancient Egyptian, Greek, Phoenician etc; it makes no sense to use English names rather than ancient Egyptian, Greek, Phoenician Rktect 12:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intended additions

There are two wrinkles in the story that I plan to add, as I get time. First, it seems that part of the itenerary recap given in Nu. when it is recapped repeats part of the journey, perhaps from another source, as per the Documentary Hypothesis. Second, the itenerary recap seems to have the Israelites going back through Edom, whereas the narrative text is quite explicit that they went around it. --ThaThinker 20:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The first six stations of the Exodus are in Egypt near Thebes, Karnak, and the wadi Ham ma3t leading to Thebes Red Sea Port of Elim. The seventh is the Red Sea, the ninth through 13th are around Elat at the head of the gulf of Aqaba, the next couple of Dozen follow the borders of Edom North edging the dsrt of Sn, thence east toward Moab and South to Petra. There are several at Petra including a mention of the cleft in the cleft of the rock, and then back to Kadesh Barnea before heading back north to Dibon in Moab.

The information on the stations listed in the references (book and page) refer to the books in the Syllabus. This was cross referenced but has been vandalized by some POV editors who apparently have no interest in ancient languages or history, but rather think the Bible was written in Hebrew. In Particular Rivers in the Desert by Nelson Glueck walks the route well by well back in the forties before the whole region was turned into a tourist trap.

• 2. Nelson Glueck(1959). Rivers in the Desert. HUC. ISBN.Discusses The evidence for the Exodus in the Negev pp,15,41,63,95,102,106,118,119,122,123,138,143,150,151,162,167,170,171,172,186,187,194,243,246,250,258,276

Another good reference is McNeil and Sedlars discussion of the Ancient Near East (ANE)

• 3. William H McNeil and Jean W Sedlar, (1962). The Ancient Near East. OUP. ISBN. Among other things this discusses the evidence for Habiru in Canaan

The Epic of Gilgamesh introduces some connections between Mesopotamia, Lebanon and Egypt which tie into and reinforce the antiquity of Elat as a major trade center. In particular we can look to Sumerian as providing many of the determinatives for place.

• 4. Andrew George, (2000). The Epic of Gillgamesh. Penguin. ISBN No14-044721-0. Includes toponyms for Canaan

• 5. James B. Pritchard, (1968). The Ancient Near East. OUP. ISBN.

• 6. Shaika Haya Ali Al Khalifa and Michael Rice, (1986). Bahrain through the Ages. KPI. ISBN 071030112-x.Nice article by Zahrins on the Martu and other information such as the Mari letters.

• 7. Dr. Muhammed Abdul Nayeem, (1990). Prehistory and Protohistory of the Arabian Peninsula. Hyderabad. ISBN. Discusses The archaeological sites in the Arabia penninsula and especially the sites around Timna.

• 8. Michael Roaf(1990). Cultural Atlas of Mesopotamia and the Ancient Near East. Equinox. ISBN 0-8160-2218-6. discusses all the cultures of the Ancient near East IN SOME DETAIL.

• 9. Nicholas Awde and Putros Samano(1986). The Arabic Alphabet. Billing & Sons Ltd.. ISBN 0863560350.

• 10. Gerard Herm(1975). The Phoenicians. William Morrow^ Co. Inc.. ISBN 0-688-02908-6.Ezion Geber and other Phoenician trading ports listed on the stations list. pp 33,84-106 passim, 123,125,126,145,149,150,154

[edit] Totally disputed

This article is a joke. It has obviously been dragged away from anything like a sound documentary and archaeological treatment into a POV-pushing screed. "Ramesses" is Thebes? Nonsense. Pi-rameses in Lower Egypt is the nearly universal consensus. The only reason one might select Thebes -- which had various names in Egyptian, but never Ramesses or anything like it -- is because it accords with someone's pet theory. Citing a deluge of references, some of obviously little to no relevance, doesn't help. For all intents and purposes, this article is completely unreferenced. TCC (talk) (contribs) 07:28, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I reverted the page to how it was on June 7. The current version is significantly worse than that version. Although it was not sourced, it discussed the relevant documentary hypothesis issues and did not present conjectures as fact. Feel free, of course, to re-add details from the previous version. Please remember to mark conjectures as such. --Eliyak T·C 03:23, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry- I failed to notice that the documentary hypothesis section had simply been moved to below the list. I stand by the revert, however. --Eliyak T·C 03:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Studies of the Stations of the Exodus

The stations of the Exodus have been studied for centuries. Many 19th century archaeologists made speculative claims based on a combination of religious belief and assumption which have gradually been disproven by more recent work. Thats the reason for listing footnotes and references.

False assumption No. 1. The People of the Exodus were Hebrews and spoke Hebrew. At the time the story claims the People of the Exodus left Egypt there were no Hebrews and Hebrew didn't exist as a language.

False assumption No. 2. The story refers to people crossing the Yam Suph or Reed Sea. Actually the phrase originally used was Red Sea which comes from the Greek term Erythrian Sea. It would be good if people thought things through or had some basic familiarity with the languages involved. The language of the Exodus would have been Egyptian because according to the story the people involved had lived in Egypt for close to half a millenia

False ssumption No. 3. The wanderings in the desert take place in Sinai. The identification of the stations places them in three sets. Egypt, the stations related to crossing the Red Sea from Elim to Elat. The circumnavigation of Edom. Starting at Elat they go north to the mediterranian, then east to Moab, then south to Petra and return to Elat. The evidence for this is cited in the stations with references and footnotes.

False assumption No. 4 The capital of Egypt is in the Delta. The capital of Egypt at the time in question is at Thebes.

There are a long list of further false assumptions addressed in the stations list. It would be good if people discussed some of the things they don't understand on the discussion page before deleting the references and footnotes again Rktect 00:26, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

The purpose of an article talk page is the content of the article, not to present editors' personal views on or discuss the underlying subject. See the talk page guidelines. Best, --Shirahadasha 01:02, 23 October 2007 (UTC)