Talk:States of Austria

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The country article suggests "States of Austria". We may want to rename that way. ---User:Docu

The article was separated from Bundesland, which used to contain the states of both Germany and Austria. Any change should include disambiguation for each of the states rather than a mere redirection. The states as such are also in great need of work, and in some cases disambiguation. -- Mic


Ok, I disambiguated the three remaining links to Bundesland that are for Bundesland (Austria) in St. Pölten, Salzach and List of capitals of subnational entities. To some extent the article "Bundesland" is now more ambiguous, as one may think it refers only to Germany. As for links currently to Bundesland (Austria) being redirect to States of Austria, this is not much of a problem, as they are pointing to synonyms. Further the related-changes function is less an issue, as they are in articles that are more specific than the one linked to. Thus we can wait for a/the new tool to eliminate the remaining redirects. -- User:Docu

Contents

[edit] Bundesländer wrong term

Why is it called "Bundesländer" when the Austrian constitution talks about "Länder"? Unless someone can provide me the passages from the text, I think I will correct the article. I also read the German Version of this article on de. Wikipedia, it explicitly states that the term "Bundesländer" is common jargon, however the correct word is "Länder"... Gryffindor 20:16, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Article 3 of the B-VG uses "Bundesländer". Martg76 23:10, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Both words are correct. Take the German language into account that allows to connect words to longer ones (compound, see a loooong example). The official name is Land (pl.: Länder), but Bundesland is just as correct since it only further describes the word Land (as a federal state). See it as the englisch word state: You can say I live in the state of california or you say I live in the federal state of california. I hope I'm correct when I say "there is no difference".
The Austrian constitution that Martg76 cited also uses both Länder (Art 2 Abs 2 B-VG) and Bundesländer (Art 3 Abs 2 B-VG) proving that there is no difference in German. --Wirthi 09:23, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] English terminology

I was wondering about the use of the term "state" as the English equivalent of (Bundes)land. The Austrian Broadcasting Corporation's (ORF's) English language news desk (serving Radio Austria International and FM4) - probably the only news service to regularly report on provincial Austrian politics - uses the term 'province' whenever talking about an Austrian Bundesland. I generally consider their choices a prime reference.

I tried to search some other "authoritative" sources (such as government websites, etc.) only to find such botched-up sentences as "Austria is a federal state consisting of nine independent federal states." (Austrian Press and Information Service)

In short, I believe province would be a better choice. If anything, the article should at least contain a reference to the fact that (Bundes)land is also commonly translated as province - a reference which I have since added.

Schekuli 05:19, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I rather think state is correct. In German, the correct term for the nine subdivisions auf Austria is Land (pl.: Länder). This is defined by Article 2 of the Austrian Constitution, that reads: (1) Österreich ist ein Bundesstaat. (2) Der Bundesstaat wird gebilded aus den selbständigen Ländern: ... (Austria is a federation. It consists of the autonomous states: ...). (Just as a sidenote: that they are sometimes called Bundesländer happens because there is a major confusion with the word Land in German. It can mean both nation and state, so Bundesland makes it clear a federal state is meant and not a nation. Both expressions seem to be correct by law).
Each state has his own constitution, has an own parlament, an own Governor (Landeshauptmann; he is independent of the federal goverment and some states have a direct popular vote for him), own laws. I would guess the states are less souvereign than US states but still there are many things they can descide upon without the federation.
And last, my dictionary (Langenscheidt) says province translates to Bezirk (district). This is another prove against using this word, because Bezirke are the subdivisions of the states in Austria (see: Districts of Austria).
--Wirthi 09:10, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have been wanting to write this for some time, and since you are picking up the topic, here we go:

I more strongly than ever believe that province is the right translation of Bundesland in the Austrian (!) context. Why?

If you look at the top of this page, you will find a link to "WikiProject Austria". And if you now go to section 8.4, "translation and style guide"/ "administrative divisions" you are redirected to a page which reproduces part of the current EU style guide for translations. This style guide specifically says that in translating from German to English, (Bundes)länder in Germany should be rendered as states, whereas Austrian Bundesländer should be called provinces.

First of all, this is indeed part of the style guide of the EU. The only part now missing from my argument is the following: why should Wikipedia follow this usage? The answer, from my point of view, is quite straightforward. Since the European Union is the only political institution publishing English-language documents relating to the entities under discussion (i.e. Austrian Bundesländer) they have the prerogative of deciding on the terminology. Just as, in discussing the correct German term (Land vs. Bundesland) we referred back to the Austrian constitution and Austrian laws, I believe we should follow the usage of the acquis of the European Union in deciding on the English terminology. Schekuli 22:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

And just another side note: Province <-> Bezirk is, well, plain wrong as far as I am concerned. Well, maybe I shouldn't be that categorical in my statement, but off the top of my head I can't think of a single context in which this translation would be fitting. Or do they talk about "Kanadische Bezirke" on the Austrian/German news? I don't think so. And while we are there, Canada is actually a good example that goes to show that province doesn't mean "not autonomous". Canadian provinces enjoy much greater autonomy than Austrian Bundesländer, yet they are still called provinces... Schekuli 22:44, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Shame on me, I guess you are right. I just found a document (Program of our new goverment) that also uses provinces. I still think that this is a very wrong translation. I don't know who made it up, but both in school and at university (and I'm studying international law, how much more on-topic could it get?) we learned that state would be the correct translation. I don't see any reason why province should be preferred over that.
The govermental law-information-system [1] that offers a translation of the most important laws avoids the problem by using Laender as the englisch translation of Länder ;-)
About Canada: Well, we call them Provinzen. We call the US-states Staaten. Why can't english people call our subdivisions Laender. That would ease things :-)
I don't think the EU is competent in desciding the correct translation. In this case they can just sum up knowledge that already exists. How the Länder should be called in englisch has to be descided by Austria. I don't know if the goverment officially made up it's mind.
If it holds that province is the correct translations, many articles have to be rewritten. You can suppose I would oppose that, but what does it matter what I think? My own goverment attacked me from behind while I had such a good line of arguments. Well, not my lucky day today ;-)
I'll try and ask some contacts what they think about it. --Wirthi 23:38, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I've also heard a number of Austrians using the term "county". It is difficult because the powers allowed to German Bundesländer are far greater than those alloted to the Austrian Bundesländer. As such, the Germans tend to see theirs as States, while the Austrians may be at a bit of a loss for an appropriate term.
Oh, and Wirthi, so should we say the nine Lands of Austria? :)
Btw, I just changed the word "Competence" in the article to "responsibility" (=dt. "Kompetenz"). "Power" is also a standard term in English. The English word comptetence is defined at Merriam Websters; the best German translation is something along the lines of "geistige Fähigkeit". samwaltz 14:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

For what my 2 cents as a translator based in Graz are worth, the word "province" is long established. I suspect it probably dates back at least to the occupying forces after the Second World war - if not, indeed, to the times of the monarchy. The Austrian Bundesländer not only have very much less autonomy than the German ones; they also are overwhelmingly based on preexisting entities with regional identities going back centuries. Only Burgenland and Vorarlberg are 20th-Century inventions. In Germany, by contrast, definite efforts were made to create units that cut across the traditional boundaries: Baden-Württemberg, Rheinland-Pfalz, Nordrhein-Westfalen, Niedersachsen etc. were all constructed with the intention of forcing a break with old regional identities and loyalties. Ben Hemmens 83.65.178.206 10:36, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

quote"I've also heard a number of Austrians using the term 'county'." Well I guess those Austrians said (or wanted to say) 'Country' (Land-Country is the direct translation, thout it's misleading) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.241.36 (talk) 12:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Salzburger Land?

To declare the state of Salzburg as Salzburger Land in native German is complete nonsense. The official name of the Bundesland is Salzburg, and that is the way it should be written in an encyclopedia like wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.47.168.50 (talk) 18:10, 13 April 2007 (UTC).

While the official name (given by the law) of both the city and the state are Salzburg as you state, it is not "complete nonsense" to use Salzburger Land. This term is often used to distinguish the the state from the region. Check salzburgerland.com for example or do a simple search on google for the term. --Wirthi 19:32, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ceded land?

"The states of Upper Austria and Lower Austria are mostly equivalent to what formerly were the two semi-autonomous halves of the Archduchy of Austria, a principality which formed the empire's historic heartland and which had to cede significant tracts of land to Czechoslovakia in the aftermath of the empire's dissolution."

Which tracts of land did it cede to Czechoslovakia, i skimmed through some historic maps on the internet and i couldn't find any such tracts of land. A source would be welcome. 153.5.62.201 19:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess you are right with your complaint about that paragraph, but things are as usual more complicated. When the Austrian-Hungarian Empire dissolved near the end of the first World War, it split into several souvereign states. Before that, two states existet: Austria and Hungary (thus, the Dual Monarchy). Austria consisted of several states, like what is now Upper Austria, Lower Austria or Bohemia and Moravia. Knowing this, of course - as you state - neither Upper Austria nor Lower Austria ceded land to what is now the Tschech Republic. Check Image:Austria-Hungary_map.svg for example, 14 (Upper Austria) and 8 (Lower Austria) seem just equal looking at a modern map. I guess what is ment in this paragraph is that Austria ceded that land. That is true of couse, if you accept the modern Austria to be some kind of "legal successor" to the old Austria (Cisleithania). --Wirthi 19:45, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually a part of Lower Austria had to be ceded Czechoslovakia due to the Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye. This was an area west of Gmünd. However I would not call this a significant tract of land. (K.I.)

[edit] Map showing make-up of state (provincial) governments

I don't think the map that was added fits the format of the current article. At the moment, it's under the heading of geography, and I don't think it belongs there. Either a text section on provincial (state) politics is added to the current article, or the map should be taken down. As far as I can see, the map was created for a different article (Distribution of seats in the Austrian Landtage) and then just added to this one for good measure. In addition, I don't think the map is aesthetically pleasing with all those hatched areas... so if no objections are posted over the next couple of days, I will take it down and maybe just add a link to the other article instead. Schekuli 20:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)