Talk:State Sponsors of Terrorism

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I must admit, it does seem a little silly to have an actual government document that is by and large arbitrary. Oh no, I'm on the United States's big scary terrorist list! What ever will I do! Randall00 10:29 11-4-2006

How is this at all neutral ? If a list of nations that the US accuses of 'sponsoring international terrorism', in the interests of neutrality we would either have to delete this page or create pages of nations that Cuba, North Korea and Iran accuse of 'sponsoring terrorism'. Hauser 1 October

The US opinion may be biased, but this is a faithful reproduction of an official and factual US government document, just as any other US federal departmental report. - Loweeel 05:13, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

O.K., It's a reproduction, but so what ? Why does this even need to be here ? If other nations don't have their lists of nations that 'sponsor terrorism' here, then it makes the inclusion of this article inherently biased Hauser 2 October 2004

Then start pages of other nations' lists, if you want them. Nobody's stopping you from doing the research or making the wikipedia articles. Loweeel 15:32, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

IMHO the article is a factual reporting of a list, albeit a subjective list. On those grounds it is certainly NPOV. And the list is notable enough to be included in Wikipedia. The lack of similar lists from other countries might mean that the Wikipedia needs more articles but not that this article is biased. --Jll 14:21, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

true, but this page should be removed from the terrorism template. The terrorism template already has references to the FBI most wanted list and the US stat dept. list. The link to this page is presented like it contains a general overview of state sponsors of international terrorism, but this list is only about anti-american state sponsored terrorism --Mixcoatl 15:02, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Rather than a US govt. list of present state sponsors, lets rework it a bit and make a list of all past and present state sponsors of terrorism. That way we can include Israel and their backing of the stern gang and the contras. --Uncle Bungle 04:25, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Mixcoatl that this list is not appropriate for a definitive "State sponsors" link the Terrorism template. Either the link should be deleted or set to point to the new article listing all those states which have supported terrorism at some time which Uncle Bungle proposes. It will be a long list. I would not change this article into that one though as this is a specific notable list that people want to find out about. It just happens to be about one government's view of state sponsored terrorism. An equally notable list about, say fruit, would also deserve its own article. --Jll 23:44, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Oh, for crying out loud, this is an official US government list with official US government ramifications regarding the law, especially regarding export controls and financial aid. To quote from the US State Department website:

State Sponsor: Implications

Designating countries that repeatedly support international terrorism (i.e., placing a country on the "terrorism list") imposes four main sets of US Government sanctions:

  • A ban on arms-related exports and sales,
  • Controls over exports of dual use items, requiring 30-day Congressional notification for goods or services that could significantly enhance the terrorist list country's military capability or ability to support terrorism,
  • Prohibitions on economic assistance; and
  • Imposition of miscellaneous financial and other restrictions, including
    • Requiring the United States to oppose loans by the World Bank and other international financial institutions;
    • Lifting the diplomatic immunity to allow families of terrorist victims to file civil lawsuits in US courts;
    • Denying companies and individuals tax credits for income earned in terrorist list countries;
    • Denial of duty-free treatment for goods exported to the United States;
    • Authority to prohibit any US person from engaging in a financial transaction with terrorism list government without a Treasury Department license;
    • Prohibition of Defense Department contracts above $100,000 with companies controlled by terrorist list states.

-US State Department page

If you don't like the US government actions or otherwise have an axe to grind, that's fine, but this list is an objective fact with real-world implications (NPOV, in other words), and wishing otherwise is plainly POV. --Calton 05:02, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have no problems with placing this list, but there shouldn't be linked to it in the terrorism template. --Mixcoatl 14:30, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree. The article is fine, but not the link from the terrorism template. That just labels the link as "State sponsors", as if this is the definitive list. I would be happy with it in the template if it had a more accurate label.
ps. There was no real need to quote from the State Department website in full as the information is in the article anyway (I put it there) --Jll 21:32, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] The U.S. obviously won't put itself on this list

Could someone create List of U.S sponsored international terrorism? Kingturtle 21:31, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, like that wouldn't be inherently POV.--KrossTalk 11:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
We sponsor terrorism? Well, I guess we did help out in the Bay of Pigs, and with that assassination of Ngo Dinh Diem (I don't even know if you can call them terrorists though). But, if we do "sponsor" terrorism (which I doubt), it would be classified, no wikipedian would know about it.--Porsche997SBS 21:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
The term to 'sponsor terrorism' is highly POV. If you ask those on the receiving end of these 'sponsorships', the survivors will almost certainly tell you that the supporters of those groups are sponsors of terrorism. The supporters of those groups will tell you they're supporting freedom fighters or training people to better defend themselves. Also consider the history of the School of the Americas, School of the Americas Watch, and of Osama bin Laden#Afghan_Jihad_resisting_the_Russia_invasion and the Mujahideen#Afghan_Mujahideen. And consider Operation Northwoods, described in Wikipedia as "a 1962 plan to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government of Fidel Castro as part of the U.S. government's Operation Mongoose anti-Castro initiative. The plan, which was not implemented, called for various false flag actions, including simulated or real state sponsored terrorism (such as hijacked planes) on U.S. and Cuban soil.", and also Operation Ajax, a 1953 covert operation by Great Britain and the United States that overthrew the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran (1951-53) Mohammed Mossadegh, and put the Shah (Pahlavi) back in power. In Nicaragua, consider the story of Sandinistas and the Contras. In the continental US, look at Native American history and read about the Indian Removal, the Trail of Tears, Chief Joseph, and the stopping of the fleeing of the Nez Perce to Canada. Per Wikipedia's Freedom fighters article, "Historically, people who are self-described "freedom fighters" tend to be called assassins, rebels, or terrorists by their foes. During the Cold War, the term 'freedom fighter' was widely used by the United States and other Western Bloc countries to describe rebels in countries controlled by communist states or otherwise under the influence of the Soviet Union, including rebels in Hungary, the anti-communist Contras in Nicaragua, UNITA in Angola and the multi-factional mujahideen in Afghanistan." (i.e. the USSR would have probably considered the US to be a state sponsor of terrorism in Afghanistan.) A lot depends upon the eye of the beholder; things are rarely black and white; viewing events from the other side's shoes can often be enlightening.--Kaze0010 08:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why isn't there a link to the actual list included here?

And why aren't there more links to the relevant government documents? From a citations' standpoint, this page is a wreck needs to be cleaned up. Stone put to sky 13:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] North Korea

The US has removed North Korea from the list because of them stoppin gtheir nuclear program. The Honorable Kermanshahi —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 17:46, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the listed countries

here are the currently listed terrorism sponsoring countries. theyre 6, and libya might be officially taken off, but usa immigration still wanted to keep it on the list.

Cuba - Havana - HAV Iran - Tehran - THR Libya - Tripoli - TIP North Korea - P'Yong Yang - FNJ Sudan - Khartoum - KRT Syria - Damascus - DAM

The government of these countries supports terrorism. There are more suspicious countries (29 of them), but the government doesnt have anything to do with support, at least its not proven. —Preceding unsigned comment added by A lil wee tiny bee (talk • contribs) 16:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The fact if these countries are actually guilty is irrelevant, this is an American list and Libya isn't on it, Syria, Cuba, Iran, North Korea and sudan are.

BTW, the US has recently also threatened to add Venezuela to the list. The Honorable Kermanshahi (talk) 12:36, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] US state dept. website material

It should go without saying, but to copy and paste whole sections from one website is not acceptable, esp. when not all the material is about State sponsorship of terrorism. Wikipedia is not a mirror site for state.gove. I removed the off topic material, and tried to keep the material that is at least on topic. However, it should be sumarized and other sources used, as well.Giovanni33 (talk) 21:32, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

All the material is from a chapter called "State Sponsors of Terror Overview".Ultramarine (talk) 21:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Also, you created a very strange and POV section, removing for example from the Sudan section all explanations for why US consider it to be a sponsor of terrorism.Ultramarine (talk) 21:36, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Untrue. What was relevant, just barely, to the subject was this: "Sudan's history of having played host in the mid-1990s to al-Qaida leader Usama bin Ladin continues to weigh heavily in the objective assessment of Sudan's role in international terrorism, but there is no indication that al-Qaida elements have had a presence in Sudan with the knowledge and consent of the Sudanese Government for at least the past five years." Can you explain how the material that I trimmed is relevant to State Sponsorship of Terrorism?Giovanni33 (talk) 21:42, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
That would mean that Sudan should not be on the list. The deleted material mentioned support/presence of other terrorist organizations.Ultramarine (talk) 21:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Give me the quote where it claimed that Sudan's policy supported terrorist activity, i.e. engaged in state sponorsed terrorism. If there is such a claim then I would agree it belongs, but I saw no such claim. Quote here, where you think it says this, exactly.Giovanni33 (talk) 23:13, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
"Continued focus was placed on Sudan for its role in contributing fighters for the Iraqi insurgency." Ultramarine (talk) 07:05, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Look at the full paragraph in context: "Continued focus was placed on Sudan for its role in contributing fighters for the Iraqi insurgency. Sudanese and foreign nationals who transited Sudan have been captured as foreign fighters in Iraq. The Sudanese have taken steps, through self-initiation and encouragement by the United States and other international actors, to disrupt jihadists both traveling to and returning from Iraq; however, significant gaps in knowledge and capability to identify and capture such individuals remain." This makes it clear that its not a state sponsored action; instead Sudan, according to this source, has taken steps to "disrupt jihadists both traveling to and returning from Iraq." Also, I note that you did not put in this part, that you think belongs. You put back EVERYTHING yet again, which is all off topic material, that you never explained why it belongs. You should self revert and keep this on talk until there is some agreement.Giovanni33 (talk) 18:26, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Still an area of "Continued focus" with problems remaining. You never explained all your deletions.Ultramarine (talk) 18:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
An area of focus, says nothing about any allegations of state sponsorship of terrorism. So that doesnt belong here. I have kept the material that was relevant and removed the off topic material. You have yet to quote anything that you restored that shows its valid for inclusion per the topic. I showed you above how your quote is not state terrorism. You have no responded to that or removed to from the article. Explain your revert or self revert. This article is not a dumping ground for your copying and pasting from state.gov websites as you are doing on this and other articles.Giovanni33 (talk) 19:17, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
That, as well as several other paragraphs, is what the US state regarding Sudan. Your selective quotation gives the impression that this quote was all the US stated regarding Sudan. Either all the material should be quoted in full, or it should be stated that this is selective quotations leaving material out, or the content should be fully paraphrased. Currently I am considering paraphrasing the material and replace the outdated statements at the top.Ultramarine (talk) 19:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree is should be summarized, with the relevant quote included. That makes sense. But your edit on the article which was to restore the full copy and past of all the material was much worse than the possible interpretation that this was all that was said about it. I don't think anyone would make the interpretation. What is logical to be assumed is that this was all that was said relevant to this topic, subject matter. Why would quoting the relevant part make anyone assume that was all the US had to say about the country? Since the subject is state sponsors of terrorism, we would only assume this is all they said on the subject matter, which is the case.Giovanni33 (talk) 20:12, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Again, your selective quotation give a misleading presentation of what the US states on this and does not mention that it is selective. Better to add a link to the report as I have done. Also, I discovered a newer report, so both of our versions were outdated.Ultramarine (talk) 21:59, 18 March 2008 (UTC)