Talk:State Religious Affairs Bureau Order No. 5

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Contents 1 Deletion Proposal 2 Did You Know... 3 Neologism 4 Changes 5 Reincarnation Application 6 Order No. 5 in its entirety 6.1 State Religious Affairs Bureau Order No. Five

[edit] Deletion Proposal

This article was nominated for deletion in the past. The result of the discussion was keep.

Deletion debate was under its former name. See this link.

[edit] Did You Know...

...that the Chinese government requires any living Buddha who wishes to reincarnate to submit a Reincarnation Application?

A fact from State Religious Affairs Bureau Order No. 5 appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 13 August 2007.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Clerks (talk • contribs) 23:02, 13 August 2007

[edit] Neologism

The Chinese government maintains that the procedure is not a qualitative change from the (intermittent) practice of the Qing dynasty:

• 国家宗教局:尊重活佛转世传统 保障宗教信仰自由 (中国网, 3 August 2007)

To treat "reincarnation application" as a technical term in the narrow sense suggested by the article is creating a neologism which is hardly supported by the two (!) media reports the article is based on, and not at all by the legal situation in China. Why was this article written without any knowledge of the decree itself? —Babelfisch 07:31, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:SOFIXIT --Lucid 08:03, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

There's only one way to fix it, and I've tried that, as you may remember: [1]. —Babelfisch 08:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Obviously not, unless you're proposing that something that is very notable be deleted because WP:YOUDONTLIKEIT. By your own *admission above* it's a notable subject with significant media coverage. --Lucid 08:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and moved the article, for the time being, to State Religious Affairs Bureau Order No. 5, which is the title of the document in question in the English translations I've seen. This title is still problematic, since, I assume "State Religious Affairs Bureau" is a translation of 国家宗教事务局 which we call "State Administration for Religious Affairs" elsewhere. Curiously, this conflict exists even in the source translation. It would be helpful if somebody could point me to the text of the regulation in Chinese.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 16:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

It appears as if this whole Neologism argument is really an effort to have this issue hidden. The new name seems rather obscure. I doubt people would search for it. Clerks. 14:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

My move of the article to a new title was most certainly not an effort to hide the issue, and I don't really appreciate this kind of aspersion. What title do you want us to use that people will be searching for? What makes you think people are searching for "reincarnation application"? That phrase appears to be used almost exclusively on Wikipedia -- when I search google for it, I get 126 hits, and 3 of the top 4 are Wikipedia or mirrors; the other is some obscure blog. Also, I don't understand the purpose of the sources you listed below. None of those articles use the phrase "reincarnation application".—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 03:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Nat Krause, my point is that if you search Google News with "Reincarnation, application" you will find several articles relating to this topic. The term "State Religious Affairs Bureau Order No. 5" will get you one on this topic [2]. This new title is fine. I agree it is more acurate. It will be fine, as long as the redirects for "Reincarnation Application" stay in place. My comment about Neologism was aimed at anyone who believes this article should be deleted or hidden. Clerks. 13:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changes

I also went through and changed instances "living Buddha" in the article, outside of quotations, to tulku. And I removed the passage of the article claiming that the title "living Buddha" was first applied to Phagpa. This is probably true, but I'm not sure in what sense, and I don't fully trust a source that misspells his name (it should be ’Phags-pa or Vphags-pa or Phagpa or even Pagba or Pagpa; but the s is mandatory if you're including the v). This passage seems to be referring specifically to the title "Living Buddha", since the Karmapa was the first tulku. Since the title in this case is a translation (Phagpa was presumably not given a title in English), we can only speculate what it is being referred to—活佛 is the obvious choice, but I wouldn't put it past China Daily to be confused about something like this. Moreover, who cares what the history of the title is? Phagpa wasn't even a tulku, so far as I'm aware, so he wouldn't have fallen under the regulations discussed in this article anyway.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 16:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Many of the news articles use the term "living buddha", is there no way we can keep that term within this article? The translation posted on Save Tibet.org (see below) also uses the term living buddha Clerks. 13:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC) Withdrawn Clerks. 13:10, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reincarnation Application

As people may in fact be looking for an article titled ,Reincarnation Application, I think it is important to use the term in the lead section. This is the term used in several articles (see list below). Clerks. 14:31, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• TimesOnline
• Spero
• The Telegraph India
• Reuters Canada
• Telegraph UK

[edit] Order No. 5 in its entirety

In case anyone wants to expand the article, below is a complete translation of the entire order taken from Save Tibet.org

[edit] State Religious Affairs Bureau Order No. Five

These “Management measures for the reincarnation of living Buddhas in Tibetan Buddhism” were passed at the administrative affairs conference of the State Administration of Religious Affairs on July 13, 2007, and will be implemented on September 1, 2007.

Bureau Director, Ye Xiaowen

July 18, 2007

• Article 1: These measures have been formulated in accordance with the “Regulations on Religious Affairs” in order to guarantee citizens’ freedom of religious belief, to respect Tibetan Buddhism’s practice of inheriting living Buddha positions, and to regulate the management of living Buddha reincarnation affairs.
• Article 2: Reincarnating living Buddhas should respect and protect the principles of the unification of the state, protecting the unity of the minorities, protecting religious concord and social harmony, and protecting the normal order of Tibetan Buddhism.

Reincarnating living Buddhas should respect the religious rituals and historically established systems of Tibetan Buddhism, but may not re-establish feudal privileges which have already been abolished.

Reincarnating living Buddhas shall not be interfered with or be under the dominion of any foreign organization or individual.

• Article 3: Reincarnating living Buddhas should have the following conditions:

(1) A majority of local religious believers and the monastery management organization must request the reincarnation; (2) The inheritance lineage should be real and have continued to the present day; (3) The monastery applying for the living Buddha reincarnation must be the monastery at which the living Buddha monk is registered, it must be registered as a Tibetan Buddhist place of religious activity, and it must have the ability to train and raise living Buddhas.

• Article 4: Applicants to be reincarnating living Buddhas who have any of the following conditions may not be reincarnated:

(1) Reincarnations which are not regulated by the religious doctrine of Tibetan Buddhism; (2) Those in city-level people’s governments and above with delineated districts, which ordered no reincarnations to be permitted.

• Article 5: Reincarnating living Buddhas should carry out application and approval procedures. The application and approval procedure is: the management organization at the monastery applying for the living Buddha reincarnation where the monk is registered, or the local Buddhist Association, should submit applications for reincarnations to the local religious affairs departments at the level of people’s government above county-level; once the people’s government above county-level has made suggestions, the people’s government religious affairs department reports upwards, and examination and approval shall be made by the provincial or autonomous regional people’s government religious affairs department. Living Buddha reincarnations who have a relatively large impact shall be reported to the provincial or autonomous regional people’s government for approval; those with a great impact shall be reported to the State Administration for Religious Affairs for approval; those with a particularly great impact shall be reported to the State Council for approval.

Verification and authorization of the living Buddha application should solicit the opinions of the corresponding Buddhist Association.

• Article 6: When there is debate over the size of a living Buddha’s impact, the China Buddhist Association shall officiate, and report to the State Administration of Religious Affairs to be put on the record.

• Article 7: Once an application for a living Buddha’s reincarnation has received approval, depending on the size of the living Buddha’s impact, the corresponding Buddhist Association shall establish a reincarnation guidance team; the management organization at the monastery where the living Buddha is registered, or the corresponding Buddhist Association, shall establish a search team to look for the reincarnate soul child, and search affairs shall be carried out under the leadership of the guidance team.

The reincarnate soul child shall be recognized by the provincial or autonomous regional Buddhist Association or the China Buddhist Association in accordance with religious rituals and historically established systems.

No group or individual may without authorization carry out any activities related to searching for or recognizing reincarnating living Buddha soul children.

• Article 8: Living Buddhas which have historically been recognized by drawing lots from the golden urn shall have their reincarnating soul children recognized by drawing lots from the golden urn.

Requests not to use drawing lots from the golden urn shall be reported by the provincial or autonomous regional people’s government religious affairs departments to the State Administration of Religious Affairs for approval; cases with a particularly large impact shall be reported to the State Council for approval.

• Article 9: Once a reincarnating living Buddha soul child has been recognized, it shall be reported the provincial or autonomous regional people’s government religious affairs department for approval; those with a great impact shall be reported to the State Administration for Religious Affairs for approval; those with a particularly great impact shall be reported to the State Council for approval.

Reincarnating living Buddhas who have been approved by the provincial or autonomous regional people’s government religious affairs departments or by the autonomous regional people’s government shall be reported to the State Administration of Religious Affairs to be put on record.

• Article 10: When the reincarnating living Buddha is installed, a representative of the approving authority shall read out the documents of approval, and the corresponding Buddhist Association shall issue a living Buddha permit.

Living Buddha permits shall uniformly be issued by the China Buddhist Association and reported to the State Administration of Religious Affairs to be put on record.

• Article 11: Persons and units who are responsible for being in contravention of these measures and who without authority carry out living Buddha reincarnation affairs, shall be dealt administrative sanction by the people’s government religious affairs departments in accordance with stipulations in the “Regulations on Religious Affairs”; when a crime has been constituted, criminal responsibility shall be pursued.

• Article 12: When the reincarnating living Buddha has been installed the management organization at the monastery where he is registered shall formulate a training plan, recommend a scripture teacher, and submit the plan to the local Buddhist Association, which shall report upward to the provincial or autonomous regional people’s government religious affairs department for approval.

• Article 13: Provinces and autonomous regions which are involved in affairs of reincarnating living Buddhas may formulate and implement detailed measures in accordance these measures, and report them to the State Administration of Religious Affairs to be put on record.

• Article 14: These measures shall be implemented from September 1, 2007. Clerks. 13:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds pretty strange for a bunch of Communists to be making this sort of law. Whatever happened to religion being the opiate of the people? 204.52.215.13 06:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)