Talk:Star Wars sources and analogues

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done a search on google and can't find any other references to this theory. Even if it was, then almost all literature takes themes from religion and ancient mythology so it is hardly a revelation that George Lucas has done the same - one might as well say that Shakespeare is guily of plagiarism! Do you have any outside source for this being a well-accepted theory? MrWeeble 23:01, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I must say that you will be able to find a source on the internet, you did not look deep enough... And never compare a badly-put-together series like Star Wars to Shakespeare, it is not worth your time. être 04:58, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

can you provide links? Wasn't comparing Shakespeare with George Lucas - merely using it to emphasise my argument. Trust me I'm no fan of Star Wars and think its artistic merit to be very low - however I'm not convinced that this theory is very valid as most works are in some way based on others. Isn't there a theory in literature that there are only 7 basic stories and all other works are derivatives of these? MrWeeble 16:06, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Ouch. Just to comment...Imperial City/Corusant existed before Isaac Asimov's death.
The Trantor/Corusant parallel is something i hadn't considered before - but definately seems apparent now it is pointed out. Given there is now something on this page that I don't think is "a bit dodgy", I withdraw my former objections MrWeeble 22:49, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

This is a bogus article; it is not "plagiarism" for an artistic work to draw on common cultural heritage. Joseph Campbell points out that Star Wars follows in a long line of hero myths going back to before recorded history, which this article lamely fails to mention. It could be salvaged by being turned into a study of parallels with other stories. Stan 00:17, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I agree with the emerging consensus; this article is bogus. There is no commonly accepted theory, even among a minority of literary critics or film critics, that George Lucas plagarized the story of Star Wars from other sources. George Lucas certainly consciously drew on the mythology of several cultures, and he has publicly discussed this many times; however this is not plagarism by any definition of the word. This article, as written, may be perceived as libel. RK 01:26, Jan 11, 2004 (UTC)

Actually, he ripped significant elements of the plot from his mentor's film The Hidden Fortress; the original draft script of Star Wars was basically a science-fiction remake of the earlier movie. However, since Lucas acknowledged The Hidden Fortress as the inspiration for his film, I don't think it counts as plagiarism. --MIRV (talk) 01:38, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Inspiration isn't plagiarism by a long shot. Not to mention that the basic themes of the Hidden Fortress are themselves pretty old... RK

I took the liberty of renaming the article "Star Wars sources and the plagiarism theory," which I think comes a little closer to the issues at hand. I haven't the time or the expertise to rewrite it, though I'm hoping someone here has. It could be turned into a good essay on the sources, moving away from the plagiarism theory a bit --- though that still deserves mention, since it is a "real theory," however farfetched.


Using sources isn't plagiarism. Unless there is good evidence of actual plaguarism then this article should be deleted. DJ Clayworth 21:40, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

A while ago I altered the introduction to the article, turning it into something more like a list of sources, and reduced the "plagiarism theory" to a brief note at the very end. Again I say, this could be turned into a very good piece chiefly about the sources, but I do not have the knowledge to make it that.

Also, should we let the current title stand a while, or change it again?

If this article is kept, I think the title should be changed to something like "Sources of Star Wars" and rewritten to remove references to plagiarism. Plagiarism implies theft in the case of copyright works. Such accusations aren't appropriate in an encyclopedia.

Nice to see an article that points out how the anti-Enlightenment folks in the US (neoconservatives) act quite like the dark siders / Sith.

Why not change the title to "Star Wars Sources and Analogues" This is a conventional academic resolution to the issue, and it avoids overt assertions of unproven plagiarism. Sources are I think obvious; they are works that directly inspired or influenced Star Wars. Analogues are works that while they may not have been directly consulted, share the essential plots elements of Star Wars. I'd just change the title, but I haven't a clue how. DigitalMedievalist 06:51, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC) Lisa

  • I'll do it -- and thank you for the suggestion! - Sara 15:34, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'm currently reading "The Chessmen of Mars"...the fifth book in Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom series. I came up with familiar-sounding words like "padwar", "jed" (or "jedak") and "banth". A "padwar" is some sort of low-ranking warrior and a "jed" is a general...I think. A "banth" is a lion-like creature. I thought these are kind of interesting. You can check out "The Chessmen of Mars" at Project Gutenberg www.gutenberg.org. Also, there's a scene in Chapter 7 of "Flash Gordon Conquers the Universe" that looks like the scene in Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope where Luke encounters the Tusken Raiders. You can download Flash Gordon Conquers the Universe from www.archive.org. Doberdog 14:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

True enough. Keep an eye out for the term "sith"! --maru (talk) contribs 02:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

There was an Egyptian god Set, or Seth, which might be relevant. I always thought the term Jedi came from the sengoku-jidai, the Japanese civil wars of the sixteenth century. SkyDot 01:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Der Vater

My Haushofer references were removed (commented out). I don't think that was any more "original research" than most of the other similarities posted here. Albrecht Haushofer's poem called "Der Vater" talks about an evil that shows itself once in a thousand years, and the author's father having the opportunity to cast it back "into the sea," but letting it out instead. Albrecht's "Vater" was Karl Haushofer, and Luke's was Darth Vader. See Der Vater in the original German. SkyDot 01:52, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, consider that I deleted nearly that entire section due to rather blatant WP:OR. I commented out the sections of the page that were "on the fence". They could be OR, or they could merely be lacking the necessary citations/references. So rather than just delete, I chose to comment them out, so that whomever (you in this case, apparently) added the information could add the necessary references. I think that if you have a citation of someone explaining/commenting on the analogy between the poem and some element of Star Wars, then I'd be happy to see the section uncommented. : ) - jc37 02:25, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I think you're holding my reference to "Der Vater" to a higher standard than other references in the article. None of the others actually cite sources that explain or comment on the analogies. They basically name a work and imply that the similarities are too great to be just a coincidence. The original Star Wars trilogy was about the son of a man who helped create an evil empire when he could have stopped it. That's what the poem was about. There were a few other details in common. Why is asking the reader to read the poem and decide for herself any different than asking the reader to read Doctor Zhivago and decide those analogies for herself? SkyDot 07:48, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I note that you didn't mention "dune", which is already commented out : )
I added Zhivago to the commented out section, since your thoughts on it, at least, are well taken.
The other examples do exist (I've personally seem Lucas comment on them on television, and on "special sections" of VHS/DVDs) If you want to help find citations for those, it would obviously be appreciated.
"Why is asking the reader to read the poem and decide for herself any different than asking the reader to read Doctor Zhivago and decide those analogies for herself?" The answer is: WP:V
Hope that helps : ) - jc37 17:59, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The WP:V article does not give me a distinction between Zhivago and Der Vater that suggests why one would be acceptable and the other not. It does suggest, however, that when you comment out sections as you've been doing, it would be polite to put a note in this talk section explaining why. Is the phrase "many speculate that..." considered an acceptable citation? How about "is believe to have originated from...?" Even in those paragraphs that start with a claim that Lucas himself acknowledged a connection to a work, the examples given are not claimed to be Lucas' own examples. The examples are assumed to be obvious. I claim my own examples from Der Vater are just as obvious. SkyDot 22:47, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The commenting out/removals were noted in the edit summaries, please note the page history. I also left a comment at the top of the commented out section explaining what the issue was/is. I agree that this page could use some citations, all around. But blatant WP:OR is to be removed, irregardless. I just chose to comment out the "less blatant" examples, rather than simply deleting them. (You don't see that as "polite"?) As for the rest, check out: Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words. - jc37 23:41, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The weasel words I quoted are from the article itself, and my reason for doing so is exactly that given in the article on avoiding weasel words. Remember my main point here is that I feel that you've held my contribution to a higher standard than the rest of the article. If you held all of it to the same standard, nearly the entire article would go away. I'm not claiming Der Vater is a source, but an analogue, something with a shared motif. Such a thing is usually obvious on its face, and the other analogues in the article are treated as such. SkyDot 04:35, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

One thing I have not seen a response to, and in hindsight, perhaps I never actually asked: Do you have any references/citations for this perspective? I totally understand that you feel that they should be unnecessary, and to you, requiring them, unfair. But that aside for a moment, for a moment, do you? - jc37 19:05, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

My reference was originally the work itself, which I gave a pointer to. It's pretty short. If you need an English translation, I'm sure I can find one. I did a quick google search for "Haushofer Star Wars," looking for a reasonable citation, and found an article about Shambhala that gives much more detail than I got from the poem. In other words, not just the poem, but the entire Eastern mysticism of Karl Haushofer and Hitler could be an analogue for the Force. The article briefly suggests the connection. Another also briefly mentions the Jedi Force in connection to this mysticism. Here is another . Since this discussion started, I've been reading other Wikipedia articles with the same eye towards citations and no-original-research that you've applied to my bit on Haushofer. I have to admit, I think the rules seem to be honored in the breach quite a bit. For what it's worth, I've learned quite a bit from our discussion, though. SkyDot 06:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I very much understand. It's surprising how much we learn as we attempt to learn about the guidelines/policies here. And I won't argue that they are more often applied only when someone is "watching". I think that the references you found are great, but they only tie the mysticism to nazi-ism. (Though I still think that they can and should be worked into the article.) We still don't have a link from the poem to star wars. Before we go further, let's take a look at what we're talking about (copied unchanged from the commented out section):
  • The poem Der Vater, by Albrecht Haushofer during WWII reads like it could have been written by Luke Skywalker. There are other similarities between Karl Haushofer (Albrecht's father, an early supporter of Hitler) and Anakin Skywalker.
    • The poem refers to an evil that shows itself once in a thousand years. The Sith had not been seen for that long in the movie story.
    • The poem tells the story of how Albrecht's father had the power to stop the evil, but chose to unleash it. Luke's father Anakin had that same power and made that same choice.[citation needed]

The phrases that need proof:

  • "The poem...reads like it could have been written by Luke Skywalker."
  • "There are other similarities between [someone] and [a character from Star Wars]"
  • (1000 years is a common indeterminate length of time in literature. The 1001 arabian nights is a great example.)
  • "The poem tell the story of how [a character made a choice]. [A Star Wars character]...made that same choice.

Without citations/references, this is just speculation. It could have been written by, there are similarities between, a character made that same choice. Do you see how I could come up with examples from a TV series or film or some other poem, or some other work of literature which meet the same criteria? - jc37 07:37, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

The articles each have basically a one-liner mentioning the Force from Star Wars as possibly being inspired by the mysticism being discussed. And no, I'm not claiming they're great citatinons by any standard. If we change everything I wrote to talk about Karl Haushofer's mysticism instead of the poem, and if we cite those two articles, would that work? What if we then toss in, "See also the poem Der Vater, by Karl's son Albrecht," with appropriate links? I don't mind radical changes to what I wrote, even if nothing is recognizable. I'd like to see something about this subject "worked into the article." You can even write it, if you have the time and inclination. :) SkyDot 00:37, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Sounds interesting... Though, this is your concept, and I would prefer that you produce the first draft : ) - If you post the draft here, I owuld be glad to help, however. - jc37 22:22, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

It will be the middle of next week before I have time to work on this. SkyDot 04:10, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Similarity between basic story of Star Wars and Roman Empire?

Has anyone else noticed a similarity between Star Wars and the rise of the Roman Empire? Both start out as respected Republics, but then the greed and corruption of senators leads to the current leader transforming the republic into an empire and calling himself emperor. I believe there's more, but it's been some time since I studied Roman history. However, shouldn't this be included in historical similarities? Anakinjmt 18:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Further, I'd suggest that the American Revolution is alluded to - scrappy but outnumbered rebels fighting an empire. Several of the Imperial characters speak in British accents, but none of the Rebels do, IIRC. That said, I don't want to do original research; if anyone has sources that talk about the historical parallels, please add it. 141.156.13.69 02:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Old black and white Flash Gordon

The death star scenes in A New Hope parallel very strongly an old episode of Flash Gordon. Sorry I can't remember the name of the episode.

[edit] No no no!

I agree. Further, I'd suggest that the American Revolution is alluded to - scrappy but outnumbered rebels fighting an empire. Several of the Imperial characters speak in British accents, but none of the Rebels do, IIRC. That said, I don't want to do original research; if anyone has sources that talk about the historical parallels, please add it.

-141.156.13.69 02:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

NONE of the imperial officials speak in a English, Scottish, Irish, or Welsh accent... They speak in the form of early wealthy Americans in their formality and had an accent indicitive of General American, so as to realistically make it universally understood and appealed to by all people in the English world(for example see English language and check its ranking world-wide). As the Early General American, did have VERY high similiarities with the English accents, but it was alot more pure, and spoken with the actual pronunciation, it does however retain the certain pure pronunciated speech, as emphasized by Webster before he created the American Dictionary, or as some would suggest, when he created the American English language.209.244.42.97 16:54, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

"NONE of the imperial officials speak in a [sic] English, Scottish, Irish, or Welsh accent"?!? How about Emperor Palpatine (Ian McDiarmid, Scottish), Grand Moff Tarkin (Peter Cushing, English), Bast (Leslie Schofield, English), Lennox (John Dicks, English), Lorth Needa (Michael Culver, English), General Tagge (Don Henderson, English)? Even an American actor like Richard LeParmentier, who played General Motti, spoke with an English accent, reflecting the fact that he was living in England at the time and has in fact lived there for decades. James Earl Jones' accent as Darth Vader was what people used to call "Mid-Atlantic English," namely a sort of American stage accent with RP/BBC/Oxbridge overtones. The previous poster is correct to note that the accents of the Americans and British at the time of the Revolutionary War were probably far more similar to one another than they are now, probably sounding somewhat like modern Ulster accents. It is also true that Webster did a lot to promote a self-conscious differentiation between American and British speech. It is, however, linguistically meaningless to say that Early General American "was a lot more pure, and spoken with the actual pronunciation, ... retain[ing] the certain pure pronunciated speech, as emphasized by Webster."71.235.234.248 12:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Imperial Officers Uniforms

Who took down my edit suggesting that the imperial officers' uniforms were inspired by those of the Japanese Imperial Army during World War II? At least I had the kindness not to delete the existing comparison with the Waffen SS, which is frankly much more tenuous. That was pretty rude to delete this altogether. A quick perusal of, for example, the photo of the Japanese generals at the surrender ceremonies on the USS Missouri, available on Wikipedia's Japanese Imperial Army uniforms webpage will show that this is every bit as legitimate as most of the other comparisons on this (Star Wars) page. Everybody knows that Lucas relied quite a bit on Asian models in his costuming (check out Padme's outfits, for example). 71.235.234.248 15:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

PS: If sourcing is an issue, that is a little laughable since nothing else in this section beyond "George Lucas has said." I'll get your sources. 71.235.234.248 15:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)