Talk:Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

POV and needing citation

The entire section "reaction" is in extreme need of citation. Randomly coming up with "fan opinions" does not belong. ::—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98percenthuman (talk • contribs)

  • Please sign your posts as customary. Also, please do not immediately remove information that is not cited, simply put up a citation tag at the end of the sentence or paragraph that needs to be cited. These "fan opinions" may also be "general opinions" and if they are citable then they do belong. The Filmaker 04:42, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

When you include "general opinions" without citation they ARE indeed POV. All of the entries on the prequels read like fan-boy cites, not encyclopedia entries. Talking about what fight scene was the coolest is NOT something that goes in an encyclopedia entry. You, or anyone else editing, liking or not liking a particular film should not be evident in your edits. This, and the other prequel cites are NOT neutral. User:98percenthuman

  • Opinions is not the best word. As they say, everyone has an opinion. So there are no "general opinions" only "frequent opinions" meaning a pattern is seen within a large number of opinions. These opinions are encyclopedic, such as frequent statements over the audience's distaste for Jar Jar Binks. Also, the Revenge of the Sith article is a featured article, and the Attack of the Clones is currently an FAC. These Reaction sections are not POV, you simply have found a paragraph or two that are not cited and have been overlooked by others. The Filmaker 23:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

If you can't cite reliable, peer reviewed sources for what is a "frequent opinion" then it is a meaningless statement and doesn't belong in a reference. There are more than one or two uncited opinions (both favorable and unfavorable to the movie) in this and the other prequel entries. There are plenty of cites dedicated to uncited opinions of Star Wars films - Wikipedia shouldn't be oneof them. I think that a disservice is being done to these entries by keeping POV in without citation. If you can't find a citation, then the statements should be removed until a reliable source can be found. Until then this is not a NPOV article. 98percenthuman

  • But these "frequent opinions" can be cited. That's the whole point. Instead of attempting to find sources you are simply removing the information. If you put up citation tags then people will find their sources. The Filmaker 15:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • You seem hostile, please don't be. On Wikipedia we always assume good faith, those of us who work on these articles are not simply fanboys trying to take out our frustration or love for the movies using the articles. The Filmaker 15:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure which of my posts seem hostile - just concerned that something like the Star Wars saga deserves an unbiased reference section. I will give it time for citations (which I'm not entirely sure all of can be found). Please don't confuse dissent with hostility. --4.234.84.130 19:17, 26 June 2006 (UTC)98percenthuman

I think the section on the reaction to the film is currently biased towards being positive, when in reality one rarely hears a good word about this film anymore - it's become something of a laughingstock. While I don't think it was as terrible as many people seem to, I think the very strong, very negative fan reaction in particular should be acknowledged. I've now added back a paragraph that refers to some very specific sources, so hopefully it won't get removed again.Multiverse 13:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I keep having my latest edit removed because I'm not using references - when the paragraph is actually nothing BUT references: I refer to Spaced, This American Life and The Phantom Edit as examples where fans made it clear they were very disappointed in the film. I think adding still more references would just be excessive, frankly.Multiverse 22:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a better term would be a lack of "proper citation". A proper citation would be a source that is widely available, hence why the synopsis and the novelization sections do not feature many/if any references, because the obvious citation is the film or novel which can be easily found by either buying or renting the film or book. The only suitable reference in your paragraph is the Spaced television show, although I am only assuming that it has been released on DVD. Whereas This American Life is a radio show, radio broadcasts cannot normally be rented and if they are archived on the web somewhere than that would be the proper citation. Finally, The Phantom Edit is on the bootleg market therefore is barely available to users. If you were to use this as a reference, you would have to find an article in an online news source that deals with this subject. The Filmaker 01:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh c'mon. The Phantom Edit article has plenty of sources and online links. --maru (talk) contribs 01:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Then provide them and use them, i.e. instead of doing things the wrong way, do them the right way. The Filmaker 02:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

BIG Mistake

I was watching the movies, when I noticed a HUGE mistake. Okay, in all honesty, it wasn't HUGE, but you get the picture... When one of the Naboo soldiers were talking to Queen Amidala and telling her about Palpatine's nomination for Supreme Chancellor, he listed names and the planet they're from. Well, he got to a name and said, "Bail Antilles, of Alderaan" It's supposed to be Bail Organa. He's Leia's adopted father. Starwarsnerd 23:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Not an error. They are supposed to be two completely different characters. See Bail Antilles and Bail Organa for the differences in the two. The Wookieepedian 01:22, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

seriously? wow... lol... but, are they both from alderaan? Starwarsnerd 02:36, 4 February 2006 (UTC) wow, i read it, that clarifies things... thanks :) Starwarsnerd 02:39, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I think Bail Antilles is related to Wedge Antilles but on Wedge's wiki it says he's Corellian..... Does anyone else think this is a possibility?

Phantom Menace = Anakin

I thought the "Phantom Menace" was Anakin...Kuralyov 05:39, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think it is a reference to Palpatine, whose true manipulation has not come to light yet. Cbarbry 00:22, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
No, it was in reference to Darth Maul who was phantom-like in that nobody knew who or what he was, where he came from, etc. and he was a menace in that he somewhat harrasses the jedi.
I always had the impression that "the Phantom Menace" was the mysterious Sith Master whom the Jedi failed to catch ("but which one was slain, the master or the apprentice")? And "phantom" can also allude the fact that Darth Sidious mostly appears as a hologram in the film. - Sikon 16:21, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No, y'all are wrong- the Phantom Menance, the Menance which appeared to be, but was not actually- was the Trade Federation. The real threat was Sidious, natch. --Maru (talk) Contribs 20:34, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Of course it was Sidious. It would be foolish to think otherwise. The Wookieepedian 20:37, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Sidous being the Phantom Menance, but it could be Anakin too... his future was very clouded... Starwarsnerd 23:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

The Phantom Menace refers to the Sith in general. The Sith have been the "menace" of the Jedi since the Jedi cast out the "dark" Jedi. It referes to the fact that the Sith have been hiding for thousands of years. -Spartan Joe

LOL! That's one funny thread. Obviously it's suppose to be ambiguous and left as an prelude for things to come. So you're all right!!!! Congratulations!--P-Chan 04:07, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
No, they're not "all right," that would just be ridiculous... the phrase "Phantom Menace" has a definite, intended meaning, which, to borrow your phrasing, should be "obvious". The very nature of the phrase implies that it is referring to something. Throughout the film, the viewer is aware that events are being manipulated, but neither the Jedi, the Naboo, the Senate, nor the Trade Federation, is aware of it. So, Senator Palpatine--Darth Sidious--, along with the Sith (seeing as how Palpatine comprises 1/2 of the Sith) are the unseen, or "phantom" menace. To clarify, it wouldn't be the Trade Federation because, to the Jedi and Naboo, they would seem to be the obvious menace. It's a little more hazy when it comes to Anakin, but considering that he's not really manipulating any events here, and how he eventually comes to be manipulated, I think it pretty safe to say that Senator Palpatine--and hence the Sith--are, in fact, the phantom menace. --Johnny Panic 10:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
You guys are misinterpreting the word. Using Google's handy define: keyword, one can find these following definitions:
  1. apparition: something existing in perception only; "a ghostly apparition at midnight"; something apparently sensed but having no physical reality;
  2. An apparition or specter. Existing only as an energy form.
  3. A ghost with an identifiable form, such as that of a human, animals, ships, etc.
Now, doesn't that sound like a reference to a "threat" that only appears to be a threat? One without physical substance? Palpatine's threat to the Old Republic certainly didn't appear to be a menace, and it was very real and substanial; compare with the Trade Federation's threat, and you can clearly discern which of the two is a phantom. --maru (talk) contribs 00:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Cast

Just curious if someone can answer a question I've had about the articles for the SW movies on the Wikipedia. Why isn't the cast listed for any of the movies except for a scant few of them in the info boxes? Dismas

I don't know.... If you go to turnerclassicmovies.com (or something like that) you can find the cast for each one Starwarsnerd 02:39, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Opening Crawl copyright?

Is the opening crawl text copyrighted? I doubt that the full text is covered by fair use; is it? --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 18:05, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

The films show us (the?) thee stages of a good persons fall to the darkside

Yoda says "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

In the first movie Akakin fears losing his mother more than anything else.

In the second movie Anakin loses his mother and his fear turns to anger.

In the thid movie so fearfuly is he of losing his wife and angery that the Jedi would allow her death that he hates all Jedi.

In the end his hate turns him into Darth Vader who is suffering incarnated.

     Whoa, cool, I never noticed the pattern... Starwarsnerd 23:58, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

A POV comment.

"The much-hyped special effects were groundbreaking in their sheer scope (roughly 2,000 effects shots) and in their quality and innovation, such as co-starring computer graphics characters, completely computer-generated environments, and entire armies of characters existing only on computer hard drives."

That's one way to put it. Large parts of the movie gave me the impression: "Hey, it's a computer game. Except I don't get to control it." I'm thinking particularly of the battle scenes with large numbers of identical droids, and of the podracing.

Protected due to edit war

All 6 Star Wars film are protected from editing. This bickering is pointless. I find your lack of good faith disturbing. For the sake of unifying discussion, please try to settle the dispute at Talk:Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope. Coffee 06:35, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

No constructive discussion is taking place, so I'm unprotecting the article. Please try to work together and reach a compromise rather than simply reverting each other's edits every day and hoping one of you gets tired. Coffee 12:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
The following article has a good discussion of the difficulties of establishing 'truth' in matters like this. http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Misc/Canon.html Regards, Ben Aveling 21:28, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Excellent article! Described me exactly! The Wookieepedian 21:56, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Screenshots

Can someone please create about 5 screenshots for this article in the same format that someone has for the other five film articles? The Wookieepedian 00:20, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Racial stereotypes

At the time of its release, there was some criticism of how characters seem to be based upon racial stereotypes eg:

  • Neimodians = Japanese
  • Watto = Jew

Could someone write something more detailed about this?

You forgot the Jar Jar = Jamaican/black dude. --Maru (talk) Contribs 01:20, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree, this was a pretty big topic when the movie came out. The Boondocks comic strip even had to (hillarious) bits regarding Jar-Jar Binks. I'll add a brief sentence, but it should be expanded a little. Bobak 17:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

It is interesting to note that when the film was being made, the decision wasn't made that Jar Jar should be Jamaican. They had already designed the character and everything and then George Lucas met Amhed Best and loved his portrayal of the character. THe decision to make him Jamaican was on the part of Ahmed, NOT George.--70.119.237.64 20:34, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

RfC/poll – Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker: one article or two?

What do you think? E Pluribus Anthony 19:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

One. Starwarsnerd 00:02, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

The Phantom Menace

The Phantom Menace is Lord Sidious.

Yep. The Wookieepedian 08:11, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Arrghh! No, no, the "Phantom Menace" refers to a menace which does not actually exist- Sidious is the true menace, but the phantom one is the Trade Federation/the Separatists. Good grief, why is this so hard to understand? --Maru (talk) Contribs 17:43, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
OK, I see what you mean. The Wookieepedian 17:44, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

That depends on which way you choose to interpret the use of the word "Phantom." True, the word can be used to indicate that the "Menace" is not real. Though I'm sure the Noobians found the threat of the Trade Federation real enough. But the word "Phantom" can also mean something dreaded or despised. Furthermore "phantom" can also be used as an adjective to mean resembling, characteristic of, or being a phantom; illusive. This is what makes deciding who or what the actual Phantom Menace is open to interpretation. I personally think it fits Palapatine/Sidious a little better than the Neiomodians. Sidious is wraith-like in his countance, also as he appears as a ghost-like hologram in all but one of his apearances. The fact that he has two personas, one of them being an illusion that of a mild mannered senator. None of the heros actually see him (well, as Sidious at any rate.) And lastly, he is the true villain of the series, in keeping with a Flash Gordonesque feel George Lucas' grandious title would surely reflect the true enemy of the Star Wars universe rather than the bumbling heads of the Trade Federation. -- Kikiman 01/04/2006

Like I said above The Phantom Menace is the Sith. They have been in hiding for thoudands of years, and create sublte conflicts that fit into a larger picture. That makes the Sith the "Phantom Menace" ---Spartan Joe 4/12/06

Midi-clorians vs. midi-chlorians (spelling discussion)

The current WP article on this topic is found at midi-clorians (sic) at the insistence of a user with an early edition of the novelization of The Phantom Menace where the word is supposedly spelled that way. Requesting input in the discussion over what is actually the canonical spelling. Thank you. Rcharman 21:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Maul as Christ?

The following passage struck me as odd, out of place, and not particularly well-grounded:

The appearance of Sith Lord Darth Maul draws heavily from traditional depictions of the Judeo/Christian Devil, complete with red skins and horns. These aspects, however, also slyly refer to Jesus. Maul's red and black face bears a strong resemblance to the abstract opening sequence of Martin Scorcese's film adaptation of The Last Temptation of Christ, whose red and black images are evocative of Christ's crown of thorns. Similarly, the arrangement of horns around Maul's head can be seen as analogous to a crown, creating a dark mirror image of Christ's crown of thorns to Maul's crown of horns. These references are especially meaningful, as The Last Temptation of Christ tells an alternate, speculative history of Jesus in which the Devil tempts him to give up his duty as messiah to die upon the cross in order to live out his life with the love of Mary Magdelene. The Star Wars film cycle features a similar narrative with Anakin, a virgin-birth messiah who is tempted out of fulfilling his duty as "The Chosen One" to destroy the Sith in order to save the life of his love, Padme. In both cases, the love for whom the tempted messiah abandoned his responsibilities winds up dead, and the messiah must eventually reclaim his destiny in self-sacrifice.

Is there precedent for these views? Is it something some guy just made up? This should at any rate be examined, and I'd like to see references and even citations. Albrecht 03:33, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I smell original research. The Wookieepedian 04:59, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
The diabolical element's of Maul's character strike me as worth mentioning, but the comparison to Jesus? Risible. --maru (talk) contribs 00:19, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

DIRECTOR

For some reason people think David Boreanaz, an actor who would have been 27 years old at the time, directed this movie. This movie was, of course, directed by George Lucas. I have had my ip address blocked trying to rectify this. And I am not even a Star Wars fan. George Lucas directed 4 of the Star Wars movies, II, III, IV, and even I: The Phantom Menace. He is listed on DVD cases as the director, and every other website apart from Wikipedia. Here are a few reptuable ones: 1 2 3. I am now going to change the page back to support George Lucas as Director. And I will probably got blocked again for "vandalism". for christs sake. --Nambio 00:44, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not that; we recently had a vandal who changed all the actors and directors in an attempt to sneak in misinformation; as a result, there was a web of reverts and screwed things up, and ultimately, you were mistakenly thrown into it. The block should no longer apply though. — Deckiller 00:46, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
See your talk page, sorry about the block, it was a goof. I zapped you instead of the vandal. Note that the vandal is changing more than just "David Boreanaz", so when you revert it's important to revert all the other nonsensical information as well (by going back to an earlier version instead of just editing out "David Boreanaz" in one or two places). -- Curps 00:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
ok. thanks for the explanation guys. -- Nambio 01:14, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


Two Jedi Knights

Concerning the opening crawl. The opening crawl says "Two Jedi Knights" although this statement is technicaly incorrect it is partially correct. Qui-gon is a Jedi Knight. A Jedi master refers to a council member or when a padawan speaks to his "master".

True, but who cares? ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 00:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

End Fight Scene Music

During the fight scene between, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Darth Maul, what piece of music is playing in the background???? Its very famous, but i can't think of the title. Any help would be appreciated.-Dylan Bradbury 20:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

ET and Terminator

During the film, one may spot a Terminator Skeleton in Watto's Junkyard and also a group of ET aliens from ET in the imperial senate approaching the end.

You guys probably know this already

This article should include a picture of Anakin and the Princess somewhere. (Anakin more so). --P-Chan 05:29, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

  • The Princess? There's a Princess in A New Hope, but not in The Phantom Menace to my knowledge. The Filmaker 14:24, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Oops. The queen? You know what I mean!  :) --P-Chan 15:32, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
You wanna see the queen? Buckingham Palace my friend. As for the image, to my knowledge it's the best for including the most principal characters at once. And the queen is in that image, she's one of the handmaidens. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 00:09, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Ah, I must have missed her the first time.  :) --P-Chan 06:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I've already decided (in me mind, matey) how Anakin will be pictured. But I haven't found the photo and would like to wait till everything is expanded.

Trailer

Hey, does anyone know what film the teaser trailer was released with? When everybody infamously went to see the trailer, and left for the feature? That needs to be in the article as well. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 01:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler Warning?

Just noticed that in the very first section, there's a spoiler. Sure, if you've seen all the movies you'll know anyways, but I still think it should be reworked to NOT say that "Palpatine was the true menace to the Republic". What do they call him in the movie before you realize who it is? I guess you know anyways, I still think it should be corrected for people who don't know. Just putting this out there Atrivedi

Personally, I feel that warning and bypassing spoilers is unencyclopedic, as it gets in the way of the encyclopedia's purpose, which is to inform about the main points of a subject and its surrounding issues. — Deckiller 00:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Soundtrack Edits

I was curious why the edits I've been placing the soundtack section have been removed.

They are all true and verifyable. I tried to go to the mod who removed the edits and do it in their talk, but they removed their edit from the history... so I'm placing it here.

What am I doing that is wrong?

I can proove to you everything I stated. --Voyager1 21:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I think its because there is already a whole article devoted to the soundtrack, and about two paragraphs is probably enough for this article on that topic :) Judgesurreal777 21:28, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I've not seen any article, but I will look. I still think it's worth while to eaither have a link to said article or to say what I said which wasn't much.

I also must say that one of the edits is a correction of a fasle statement made in the paragraph. "The 2 disk Ultimate Edition sountrack presents all the music heard in the film." This is incorrect. As much as I hate the UE for it's lie on the back cover, claiming to have all the music recorded for the film, to say it has all the music in the film is another lie. It doesn't have the film version of Augies Great Municipal band, and it also neglects some small moments here and there. Also, the end credits are different in the film than on the UE or Album release.

The inclusion of the word "almost" in your paragraphs should be at least allowed. --Voyager1 21:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Visit the Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace (soundtrack) article if you wish to add more info on the soundtrack. The sentence you pointed out has been corrected tohttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Star_Wars_Episode_I:_The_Phantom_Menace&action=edit&section=22 include your "almost all music" addition. But the rest of your edits were removed because first, they did not cite any sources (which you apparently have, but should have posted in the article when you first posted the information), and second because this article is on the film itself and not the soundtrack. We want to keep it pretty basic around here and if you want to go into detail over the Ultimate Edition, you should do so in the corresponding article. :) The Filmaker 22:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused on where I should post information there as there seems to be a lack of any real article past track listings. I tried editing it and it says "This article doesn't exist."

I'm sorry for posting it here... I just thought since you had a soundtrack section you might want to protray accurately the status of the score release.

As far as citing, how do I cite something that's unused. Like, your second paragraph is misleading. The track called "The Great Duel" is a different recording than the commonly known "Duel of the Fates." True that "The Great Duel" uses a section of DOTF, but the real "The Great Duel" can only be heard in the DVD feturettes that lay unused in the final film. Instead, in the film you hear an alternate recording of "Duel of the Fates." The only difference being orchestration, namely the percussion is a bit more present and the horn part under the choir is noticably different.

Also, there is an unused end credits suite which holds the original film version of Duel of the Fates. Do I simply say "as heard in such and such game?" I'm making sure becuase I don't want information that is true and that I'm adding to information database frequented by many people to be removed again.--70.119.237.64 03:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

If you want to post the information in the Soundtrack article, but are unsure of where to put it, you could revamp the article yourself (save that you don't lose any information). If you'd like to learn how to cite sources, simply read WP:CITE, you need to find a webpage or a documentary of some kind that verifies the information you're presenting. I've reedited the paragraph on "The Great Dual" as I was misled by the featurette from the DVD. The Filmaker 03:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Your edit is better but still incorrect. "The Great Duel" is a complete different track entirely than "Duel of the Fates," which has several versions: the album version, the film version, a choirless version, and the alternate film version. It uses the same idea, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a different version.

If you look at the known recording slates, you can see "The Great Duel," then you have "Duel of the Fates" which was meant to be heard latter while they were actually in the large power plant (with the glowing tubes and platforms). Then you have the end credits suite and the unused end credits suite. The used End Credits has the commonly referred to "Duel of the Fates," and the unused one has the alternate.

Since little information is ever made available on what exactly is recorded, the only proof I have past what can be heard in the DVD feturettes and the slate numbers, are the recordings themselves made available through several mediums.

Thank you for the links to the articles. That does help.--70.119.237.64 03:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Alright this section is getting non-comprehensive now. I suggest that you add this information on "Duel of the Fates" and "The Great Dual" and the rest of alternate versions to the Soundtrack article. As of right now the section is going into unneccesary detail over the track. Therefore I've removed any references to alternate versions. The Filmaker 13:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


Reaction

In the section headed 'reaction' is says the following: "The idea that Anakin built C-3PO was also regarded by some as far fetched". I think this sentance should be removed as by its science fiction fantasy nature, all of Star Wars is far fetched. The sentance implies to me that Wikipedia consider the rest of Star Wars to be a plausible reality. Unless anyone disagrees for a good reason, I shall make this edit in a few days time. WhizzBang 14:28, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

  • That sentence must have flown under the radar, I can't remember ever hearing that claim and it wasn't cited either. So I've removed it. The Filmaker 15:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
You're obviously missing the point. It isn't far-fetched because it's fantastic or remarkable, but because it lacks internal consistency. A better word might have been "implausible." For example, a patently absurd concept like "the Force" is believable because it operates on a set of rules that make sense in the context of the movie. But in the Original Trilogy, there was absolutely zero indication that Threepio had been built by Darth Vader. The whole thing reeks of retconning and bad storytelling. It's an old cliche: "fantasy can allow the impossible, but not the implausible." (now whether the criticism was sourced is another matter) Albrecht 01:24, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Wow, that was totally unprovoked. The Filmaker 01:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry about the tone up there. Just doing my part to refute the old "well, it's only fantasy, so let's excuse shoddy storytelling" mindset, which has been haunting science fiction and undermining its reputation for decades. Albrecht 02:09, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Reference 36

Ref 36 isn't playing, I don't normally use that version of coding, could someone with more expertise fix it? Cheers, Highway Return to Oz... 21:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting usage

The Observer - Comment, August 13, 2006 column by Nick Cohen, titled: "Save us from the crackpots who see Zionist conspiracies in everything". [1] Quote:

There was much more in the same vein. All shared the assumption that the Islamist 'threat' (always in scare quotes) is a phantom menace used by the government to distract the credulous masses from Lebanon, Iraq or wherever abroad and panic them into abandoning their civil liberties at home. In this scenario, Islamists are little more than puppets jerking about to the commands of Western governments and the international Jewish conspiracy, which time their arrests to bury bad news.

Emphasis added. --88.152.179.102 11:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

contradiction

The intro to this article says that the film is currently the 6th highest-grossing, while the reaction section says 5th... Natalie 02:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Who ruined the Phantom Menace page?!

I was going to look at the Phantom Menace page, and when I got there it just said NERDS! I was terribly disappointed, and I hope whoever ruined that page reads this! Please rebuild that page Wikipedia. 8/30/06 Sean7gordon@epix.net

Taken care of. The Wookieepedian 02:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Anakin/Christ: a spurious analogy?

From the section 'Historical and cultural allusions':

The Star Wars film cycle features a similar religious narrative [to...? The life of Christ, presumably] involving Anakin, a messiah born of a virgin who is tempted to join the Sith—his sworn enemy— in order to save the life of Padmé, his secret wife. This action seemingly prevents him from fulfilling his duty as the "The Chosen One"— the individual prophecized to destroy the Sith. In both cases, the love for whom the tempted messiah abandoned his responsibilities dies, and the messiah must eventually reclaim his destiny in self-sacrifice.

The only parallels with the mainstream Christian view of Jesus's life that I see there are the virgin birth, his being the Messiah, temptation by the Devil and the eventual sacrifice on the Cross. The "reclaim his destiny" business sounds suspiciously like the plot of The Last Temptation of Christ and it's obvious where the "secret wife" idea has come from. But where, in gospel or pseudohistory, is the death of "the love for whom the tempted messiah abandoned his responsibilities" analagous with the one in the film? This passage needs some revision, unless it was actually Lucas's intention to allude to obscure theories about Christ that hold very little credence. [talk to the] HAM 19:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Totally tenuous allusion

This paragraph is ridiculous:

A possible allusion to World War II occurs during the Tatooine scenes of the film. Obi-Wan receives a radio broadcast from Naboo pleading for help. He warns the Queen and Captain Panaka not to reply to this message, never realizing that the Queen is an imposter. However, someone on the ship breaks radio silence, enabling Darth Maul to trace it. The person who sends this transmission is not seen nor heard, and is never revealed. This may be a direct reference to the highly elaborate and secretive radio interception and decryption services employed by both England and Germany during the North Africa campaign and elsewhere.[35]

This is a totally tenuous link to WW2 (there may be other allusions in the film, but this is certainly NOT one!). Looks like whoever wrote it was just looking for some sort of link to make the film appear more intellectual or something! I had to use all my willpower to keep from deleting it; instead, I thought I would do the honourable thing and mention it here.

The paragraph is cited, therefore it is not worthy of deletion. If you'd like to rewrite it to make is less "tenuous" than you are more then welcome too. The Filmaker 14:21, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the source from which it is cited is full of tenuous references! ;-) Being cited is no guarantee of quality.

-- I think that whole paragraph is simply absurd. THat's like saying that the way Couruscant looked was an allusion to New York becuase it has a bunch of big buildings.

As true as it is, it has no merit. --70.119.237.64 00:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

And yet, that ridiculous paragraph is still there! The comparison is an embarassment; it's unprofessional and fanboyish. As I said before, there are many other more direct and obvious references in TPM to historical events, so why the waste of a whole paragraph on radio transmissions that are vaguely like those in WW2? And to think this is a featured article! 88.106.204.97 02:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Alright, because of the backlash, I've removed it. The Filmaker 20:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Changes that need to be made to comply with Wikipedia NPOV rules

First, all references to The Phantom Menace "not living up to expectations" should be removed. I think it's in there a couple of times, maybe more. Nothing to back this up, it was the highest grossing Star Wars film and saying it didn't meet expectations is clearly bias.


Secondly, if you are going to continue to reference JAR JAR BINKS in a negative way, then you must provide other references to offset it, otherwise, it is not NPOV. You can't act as if "most" or "older fans" or whatever, didn't like Jar Jar, because you can't provide sources that back it up. You can't confirm what percentage of people like or dislike the character.

I think, you should add the word controversy in there with his name anytime he is mentioned (outside of plot points). There was some controversy, but again, you can't confirm anything.


Lastly, I don't agree with critics being in the "reaction" section. They should have a section of their own or not be used at all, especially if you are going to use sources which are geared toward poking fun at any well known movie just to get a reaction from fans. This includes "The Razzies" and "Mystery Science Theater 3000."

Venom-smasher 16:49, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

"Not living up to expectations" appears more then a couple times in the section? Try once, once in the entire section, and it's sourced which is the definition of "backing it up". I've stated this to you before, do you even bother to read other user's replies? Please stop reading into the article what you want, we don't refer to Jar Jar Binks as a character that "most" or "older fans" don't like. We state that he was criticized and that is all, we do not provide a specific number or even a vague number of people who liked or disliked him. There is not one point in the section that we state whether a majority or minority of people liked or disliked Jar Jar. You haven't provided a reasoning as to why critics should have there own section or not be in there at all. Your belief that the Razzies and MST3 are only geared towards getting a reaction from the fans is your own POV and should not be included in the article. Worst of all, you make outrageous statements that my supposed generalizations of the reaction are POV, yet you then make changes and add generalizations that are uncited, which are..... wait for it....... POV. The Filmaker 20:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Reference needs updating

Since the article is protected right now, I thought I'd ask for this edit here. Reference number 30, http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/1999/STRWR.html needs to be changed to http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/1999/STRWR.php. Thanks. --Jtalledo (talk) 18:25, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

NPOV dispute Section

  • Recent Changes that were made and then reverted:

REACTION SECTION


First, I removed the line: "Despite failing to live up to immensely high expectations"

I did this because:

A) This is clearly POV

B) There source is not for this line, it is a link to this website:

http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/1999/STRWR.php

Which, as you can see has nothing to do with the films "expectations" but is just offering the movies BOX OFFICE GROSS. This ref is misplaced anyway, as at the end of the paragraph you have ref to BOX OFFICE MOJO. I don't see a need for two websites showing the box office information. If the person who originally added that site, wants to replace it with the BOX OFFICE MOJO link, I could care less, but I am not wasting my time doing it, as either site gives the same information.



Second, I heavily edited the line about JAR JAR BINKS being regarded by "many members of the older fan community as a purely merchandising opportunity rather than a serious character in the film." Again, there is no way to back up this claim and this is clearly POV.

Infact, whoever put this whopper in here, even went on to add REFERENCE to an internet FORUM for crying out loud, which has a whole 2 pages of a few fans discussing JAR JAR. How this stayed in here for so long is beyond me:

http://forums.nightly.net/Jar-Jar-Binkswhy-he-doesn-t-suck-t32636.html


      • Removed the reference to midi-chlorians being controversial. This sounds like a "Fan Boy" wrote this and there is no source to back it up and the REF link goes to "EPISODE 3 Spoiler Picks."
      • Did a massive cleanup of references because a lot of them were wrong. You can check the archive for what was changed here. Several sites pointed to EPISODE 2 stuff, which has nothing to do with the current article or line that it was attached too.


      • Removed the line about "many fans and critics agree that the epic fight scene between Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Maul...BLAH BLAH BLAH."

Again, if this is going to be an unbiased article, that can't be in there. The REF was also a garbage link to a review where the reviewer makes one reference to that fight scene being "more acrobatic than previous films in the series."

If whoever added this (or someone else) would like to re-edit, they should do so, but make it unbiased.


On a side note:

      • I would like to see more about Ray Park and the choreography. This is something that set this movie apart from the original trilogy and sadly it is mentioned only once (which I now have to remove). If anything, there should be a section for choreography of this movie.



And finally, cleaned the article up a bit. In short, it seems that many "FAN BOYS" have been editing this article and now we need to make a large effort to get it back to an unbiased, NPOV article. Venom-smasher 19:33, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

LIKENESS

This user actually liked The Phantom Menace.
  • Now why should this need to be on a userpage! Everyone should like Episode I! \\LuketheGreat//


RECOMMENDATIONS

      • Flesh out the REACTION section, reorganize it, so it sounds more professional.


      • Add section on choreography of the film.

Venom-smasher 19:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


      • In the "Releases" section, the statement "The Love Letter resulted in a box-office flop, whereas Notting Hill fared rather well and followed The Phantom Menace closely in second place.[9]" contains value-laden language ("flop" and "fared rather well") that is not backed up by the IMDb blurb cited. "Flop" is not defined. The film "fared rather well" in compariosn to what? My recommendation is: edit this sentence so it contains more objective language, or locate a citation that corroborates the assertions.***

mnastasi 31 January, 2007

Response

First, I'm going to ask you to calm down and stop making changes without discussing them in the talk page first. Discussing means to converse. Meaning to trade ideas on what to do. Not to simply yell what you're going to do and then doing without bothering to wait for other user's reactions. Alright, on the subject of the "expectations", if you look at the ref and scroll down to the bottom you will find that it does mention the film not living up to expectations. As for Jar Jar, you have stumbled onto an inadequate ref. You happen to be right in this aspect, so I'm going to add new references to back up the sentence. The references do not have to point to a page about Episode I and Episode I alone, as long they contain information about Episode I. The choreography is mentioned in the production section. Please stop making accusations on the character of the users editing this article, to call us and others "FAN BOYS" can be construed as personal attack. Many users have come here and worked hard to get the article up to featured status, to call them "FAN BOYS" is rather rude and goes against the good faith policy. The Filmaker 20:21, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


You leave me with no choice. You are just being stubborn and are clearly biased about this article for whatever reason. Maybe you are the one who made many of these edits. There are some serious mistakes in this article and I am not going to stand for it. 24.148.141.38 20:26, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

You are clearly not interested in discussion. I have found that you are correct in one aspect of your criticism and have corrected in as such. And yet you claim that I am simply stubborn and am biased. I will come right out and say right now that, yes, I formatted the majority of this article. I provided the information and cited the sources. Yes. I made the most of the edits that resulted in the page that you see today. But for some reason, even though the entire article is cited, and it was voted through as one of the best articles on Wikipedia, it is "obviously POV". Tell me exactly how that is true. How? The Filmaker 20:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


Now we have gotten to the bottom of this. Because YOU did the majority edits on this article, you are clearly biased and thus refuse to discuss any mistakes. You have added false references that support your obvious POV statements. It is not the first time this article has been disputed (check the archives) and you have proceeded to quickly REVERT any changes made and refuse to make changes in the discussion page, because you did the edits. 24.148.141.38 20:41, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I am discussing the changes. You have stated your opinion, I then stated why I believe your opinion is incorrect. This is the part where you make a rebuttal and offer opposing evidence as to why I am incorrect to believe that. However, you instead run back to your accusations of me being biased. You cannot state that if one user works on the majority of the article then it is POV. Many users take it upon themselves to greatly improve an article, as I have done with the Star Wars articles. If you check the history, I am not the only one reverting changes, many other users have done so. Thus, those changes were reverted, not because they go against some POV of my mine, but because they were incorrect or uncited. Like your changes. The Filmaker 20:51, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Uh...this article is quite fine, except for that line "despite failing to live up expectations". That should be reworded, but that's it. — Deckiller 01:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)