Talk:Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country

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Shouldnt this be Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country?

Huh? Isn't that what it is? Kevyn 22:19, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Alternate Battle Ending?

A while back I heard a rumor that the battle between the Enterprise and the Bird of Prey was originally to be different. In the alternate ending, the final torpedo fired by the Bird of Prey doesn't hit the saucer but hits the bridge, killing everyone there and making Spock, McCoy, and Scotty the only survivors of the main cast. Anyone else heard of this alternate battle ending? Yes, this is true, I saw this ending at it's theatrical release in Australia. It was on for a week, then the current version was screened for the rest of the time. Not many fans have seen the 'True Version'........

[edit] Revised scenes?

What is the other revised scene in the Special Edition? The box says there are 2 revised scenes by Nicholas Meyer. There is one obvious change, the intercutting of the named co-conspirators during the mindmeld scene -- beneficial if you have no idea who they are, but it really interferes with the power of the take. Apparently the other change wasn't offensive enough for me to notice it -- what was it?

[edit] Versions?

Does anyone know if this film was cut for its video release. I remember seeing it at the cinema, then on video, and noticing both the new scenes with Colonel West but also that some stuff I remembered seeing at the cinema was missing. I can't for the life of me now remember exactly what, though.

No the film was expanded for video. They expanded Col. West scenes and actually added a reason for why the Klingon assassin had the wrong color blood (he was Col. West disguised as a Klingon and so bled red and not purple). You'd think they'd have kept that extra 60 seconds in the theatrical version. I think the video release is like 8 minutes longer than the theatrical release.

[edit] Trivia

  • Spock to Kirk: "There is an old Vulcan proverb. Only Nixon could go to China."
  • Spock's line about an ancestor of his saying that "when you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains must be the truth' is quoting Sherlock Holmes. One of Meyer's first books was a Sherlock Holmes story: "The Seven-per-Cent Solution" and there has been comsiderable fan speculation over the years that Spock's mother was a descendant of Holmes. CFLeon 00:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, I don't know about "considerable". There was an article in Trek about it once. That's the only other place I've heard the theory. If I recall correctly it was intended as a whimsical comparison of the two characters, nothing more. Kasreyn 10:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I've been to at least 2 West Coast conventions in different cities and almost a decade apart that had panels on the topic. It may not be a major theme in Fandom, but then I didn't say it WAS. Perhaps my choice of term wasn't the best, but I do know that some fans will speculate on ANYTHING if you throw it up at them. CFLeon 23:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
  • A large part of Kirk's animosity towards the Klingons comes from Star Trek III when his son David Marcus was killed by a Klingon, and reference is made to this by showing Kirk looking at a photograph of him. Merritt Butrick who played the part of David died in 1989, aged 29.

[edit] Spock's Mom

Spock's mom could not be a relative of Holmes, since Holmes is a fictional character. Spock was referring to Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, at least in the literal sense. So perhaps she's related to the author of the Holmes stories and novels, but no "living" person can be related to a fictional character.

I hate to spoil it for you, but Spock is a fictional character, TOO! I just made the comment that there'd been fan speculation about a connection between Holmes and Spock BEFORE Star Trek 6 came out (and I have never heard any speculation that Doyle was an ancestor). Didn't say I BELIEVED it to be well-founded. But I did think it was a nice in-joke for the fans. CFLeon 23:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, you have a good point. But remember, within the ST world, they treat some known fictional works of our world as if they're fiction in the ST world too. For instance, Spock gives Kirk a copy of "A Tale of Two Cities" for his birthday, and Khan quotes from "Moby-Dick". My guess is that any fictional story presented within the ST world which predates the first 5-year mission of the original Enterprise is really considered to be fiction. Which would mean that, within the ST universe, Sir Conan Doyle's stories would be fiction, not reality. Within the (fictional) ST world, Spock is "real" and Holmes is fictional. Does this make sense? Kasreyn 16:21, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
In Star Trek: TNG, which is canonical with this movie, it was established that Sherlock Holmes was a fictional character penned by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (it was a genre that Commander Data visited more than once in the holodeck).
Absolutely. Holmes is fiction in the ST canon. However, as hinted at above, there's no reason that Spock couldn't be claiming descent from Doyle. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
How about this? The Marvel Comics Universe has a lot of characters who are publicly known but generally believed to be fictional, such as Dracula. Is it not possible that Star Trek might have something similar? In a TNG episode, Guinan, who likes to namedrop was comparing Wesley's out of control nanite experiment to someone she claimed to know once: a Dr. Frankenstein. Remember that Watson was writing about Holmes' adventures. Maybe Doyle knew Watson and took the credit. Kind of like, maybe the real H.G. Wells met that famous unnamed time traveller and was a guest at his house on that day the unnamed time traveller spun his tale.Mr. ATOZ 18:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Ah, but remember that Guinan will lie, especially if it involves communication, or lack of it. (Suspicions, Time's Arrow). Guinan might not even be her real name (Q Who?). Besides, at her age she's had plenty of time to meet a doctor with ancestors from the town of Frankenstein who took on the town's name as their own. And he doesn't have to be the Dr. Frankenstein Zerothis 01:06, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Decommissioning

Regarding "We're to put back to spacedock immediately...to be decommissioned." Although it's POSSIBLE Starfleet's orders meant Enterprise was being decommissioned, it is FAR more likely the order was referring to the CREW. Officers are commissioned as well, remember, and during the early briefing scene, it was clear that the crew was retiring (ref. McCoy's "Maybe they're throwing us a retirement party" to which Scotty replies "That suits me. I just bought a boat!") Kirk's agonizing over the realization that this is finally "the end" at least as far as his commanding a starship goes.

"Mothballing the fleet" is moot - the briefing dismisses that idea since the "scientific and exploration programs would be unaffected" - and Enterprises primary mission IS one of exploration, not combat.

Simply put, the crew knew they were done, were "volunteered" for one final mission, and were a bit surprised at the abruptness of the order, but they knew it was coming. It's not surprise, but sadness you see on their faces. And Kirk's final line is "making a point" to Starfleet (to hell with the regs, we'll come in when we're ready) which is very much in keeping with his character. The fact the crew was assigned such a mission was a surprise to them all during the briefing - they all figured it was retirement time.

I think there was supposed to be a bit of irony here. They all went on a mission they really weren't too happy about. Fought tooth and nail to accomplish it, even going above and beyond the call of duty to get it done. And now that's accomplished, they can celebrate a job well done. The celebration doesn't quite happen because of what they knew all along. The sad realization and irony is, they just gave it their all to work themselves out of a job.

The bugs encountered in ST5 have apparently been resolved. Keep in mind that the end of ST5 and beginning of ST6 allows for months or years to have passed. I don't recall a single real malfunction in ST6. In fact, the Enterprise holds up well under extreme stress.

Final point - "this ship, and her history, will soon become the care of another crew" (or something along those lines) at the end of the film strongly implies that the Enterprise herself will be re-crewed. This is somewhat borne out by the number of years that pass between ST6 and Generation. At the time of ST6, the Enterprise A may be 5-10 years old, so if another 10-15 years pass between the end of ST6 and the launch of 1701B, the ship could be 25 years old. It certainly makes more sense that a 25-year old ship based on a 40 year-old design would be retired at that time.

10-15 passing between ST6 and the 1701B does not seem too likely. The articles on Memory Alpha for ST6 and Generations put both movies in 2293 based on the references in the movies and the Star Trek Chronology (full explanations for the arrival of those dates in the talk pages). Assuming these dates are even roughly correct (within 2-3 years), it seems likely that the ship herself was to be decommissioned as the 1701B was already planned or even already being constructed. Andrew McIntosh 18:06, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
From what I recall, STV takes place in 2285, and STVI takes place in 2291. Generations takes place in 2294. Gene Roddenberry always said that the Ent-A was a refit of an old constitution class ship, usually referred to as the Yorktown.TEG (talk) 22:06, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Worf

Kirk and McCoy's attorney is quite clearly referred to as "Counsilor" not Colonel."

In a military trial, an attorney can be both a counsel as well as hold active duty rank such as "Colonel", in which case Worf's ancestor could be both. Kasreyn 21:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I reviewed my DVD recently, with the audio, subtitles, and closed captions on. During the early part of the trial, the Judge clearly states "Colonel Worf, we are interested in facts, not theories" and all 3 (audio, subtitles, closed captions) agree that he says "Colonel." This is the only time his name is mentioned in the movie. In the closing credits, he is refered to as the "Klingon Defense Attorney." The Memory Alpha website refers to him as "Colonel Worf." Even the official Star Trek website calls him "Colonel Worf." I have a hard time finding him refered to as Counselor outside of WP. While he is also a Counselor, he is refered to by his rank: Colonel. I would suggest avoiding the use of Counselor for him in WP, because the title of his own article in WP is Colonel Worf. CALQL8 03:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shakespearian themes

In Hamlet, as noted in the Trivia section, "the undiscovered country" refers to death, but Chancellor Gorkon states that it refers to "the future" (as do others taking their cue from him). Is this just a mistake, or are "death" and "the future" unified themes in Klingon culture, and possibly even the same word in their language? (They do, after all, have sayings like "this is a good day to die!")

A list of Chang's Shakespeare quotes and their origins would also be a good idea -- I don't know them (apart from the obvious "To be or not to be", which comes from the same play as the film's title quote), but someone with more time on their hands than me might ;-) Perhaps a subsection on "Shakespearian themes", containing the appropriate bits from Trivia? Dave-ros 21:04, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Not a bad suggestion, since his character seemed a bit obsessed with quoting Shakespeare, even when it didn't really make a great deal of sense (e.g., his final scene, in which Hamlet's question about suicide is not really one that Chang can reasonably ask of himself. His options at that point would at most be limited to [a] death by torpedo, [b] death by fellow crewmembers, etc., but it's hard to see how he had any reason to think he had a "to be" option). Either way, most of the quotes are fairly basic, such as the "dogs of war" (Julius Caesar) reference, so it wouldn't take a great deal of digging, especially for a lit major (a lit major who also likes Trek I guess). C d h (talk) 05:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:General Chang.JPG

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[edit] Biblical themes

Food for thought. Perhaps someone not as bias as I am will agree with some of this and post the most relevant info or a summery for the article.

Spock starts out naked (symbolically that is, he is out of uniform) then covers himself (with his uniform) as he speaks with Valeris. Spock shares a drink (fruit) with Lieutenant Valeris. He talks about | The Fall of Man and his faith which is slightly different (rebellious) from the faith of logic. All the while he does not realizing the person he is conversing with is a kind of serpent in the Federation and a kind of Judas. Valeris coaxes Spock to voice these heresies by using questions.

Later Spock and Kirk discuss their pride and how it was their downfall and how they are 'only Human'.

Valeris manages to get the whole command crew to sample, indeed abuse, the symbolic 'forbidden fruit' (Illegal alcohol, Romulan Ale) by suggesting it is a good thing.

Valeris' first command to her 2 willing followers: “You men have work?” Salvation is by faith, not works. And the command is in the form of a question. The majority of Valeris' lines are in the form of questions. One of the Devil's first and most often used tactics, is questions. “Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” he also used questions against Job, Joshua, and Jesus.

Valeris' plan demands a human blood sacrifice (an important idea to the film is that Kingons are 'human' too). She calls Klingons animals, thus its an animal blood sacrifice by that point of view. Klingon blood is featured in the sacrifice scene. Its floating everywhere. Once gravity is restored, it splashes like a kind of baptismal sprinkling over the Klingons, including the chancellor. Her plan backfires as the chancellor's sacrifice proves not in vain.

Valeris makes a lot of accusations against many of people. Finally she accuses everyone on the bridge of betrayal. And then accuses entire Klingon race of David's murder. One of the Devil's titles is 'The Accuser'.

She uses people's own words against them. “Did you not wish Gorkon dead? "Let them die" you said. Did I misinterpret you?” (again with the damned questions) Earlier she had used a recording of these words to condemn him. Before that she suggested Kirk had motive to fire on the Klingons. Like satan, she keeps hammering away at the same sins, condemning over and over. An example is satan's use of lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, pride of life. He used these three (successfully) on Eve, he used them again (successfully) on King David, he used them again (unsuccessfully) on Jesus, he used them again on John (apparently), and he used them again on Paul (probably).

Eris is the Greek goddess of strife, Val is a Vulcan prefix for female names. Her name means “Vulcan goddess of strife” Valeris claims her motivations are an ordered universe. A favored M/O of demons wanting to mess up the current intended order.

Valeris practically takes command after Kirk leaves the ship. Through manipulation and lies she usurps Spock's authority and manages to get the command crew (who sampled the forbidden ale) to do everything she wants them to do. Her manipulations are such that Spock is actually very pleased with her and the results she has achieve. At least for a while. After being found out, she blames the crew for doing what she wanted them to do, “Enterprise has disobeyed orders and harbors two escaped convicts.” Another of the Devil's tactics, blaming the sinner for surrendering to the temptations that _he_ offered.

Valeris manages to add to her uniform, the rank insignia of a lieutenant commander, and indicators on her uniform of helmsman, navigation, and communications. She is merely a lieutenant helmsman.

“Congratulations, Lieutenant. That must make you very proud....” Valeris: “I don't believe so, Sir.” She denies her pride using a phrase with religious connotations, instead of using a logical statement. Its a lie, note her hesitation while she decides what to say and the distinctly un-Vulcan expression on her face when she says it. She's obviously prideful to believe she can control the order of the universe. Also, technically, a statement of faith is not easily definable as lie or truth by logical means. A lie loophole. 'The devil is in the details', they say.

Valaris: “I always wanted to try that.” “Don't try putting words in my mouth.”

In the end, Valeris proves to be small. Not nearly the powerful beast (or avenging angel, or hero) she imagined herself to be. She does not have the power to crush her enemy, the best she can do is bruise (Spock's ego). She is merely a defeated foe forced to admit her guilt. Much as the Bible promises about satan.

Spock: “Faith ... That the universe will unfold as it should.” Revelations says the universe will fold up in the end. Symbolically opposite to Spock's hopes and false religion. Remember the plot depends on Spock and Kirk being wrong for most of the movie.

Spock has tried to set himself up as a messianic figure, a peacemaker. He assumes authority over the enterprise and crew when he 'volunteers' them. He imagines Valeris as his most beloved disciple to carry on in his absence while goes to prepare a new post cold-war federation (John 14). He offers himself up for betrayal and execution (He tells Valeris to shoot him, John 13:27). He believes at the moment all the pieces are now in place, mystery solved. His work is finished and no longer requires him and he can die. Indeed, Kirk takes over the peacemaker role after this point in the film. Later he mentally crushes Valris' ego, who had only managed to bruise his. Spock even manages to work in the phrases "I've been dead before" and "go to hell"

Other phrases of note: "I'm a great one for rushing in where angels fear to tread",

Kirk says “Bless you, Sulu”, in a softer voice not directed at Sulu, this is a prayer. Besides, Sulu can't hear him anyway ;)

"You've restored my father's faith", and "You have restored my son's"

Kirk: “Everyone's Human.” Meaning we are all flawed (he includes Vulcans and Klingons in his meaning of 'Human'). He is also attempting to remind Spock that he's not supernatural/Jesus/perfect.

Fascinating, but speculative and OR. Do you have a source? --Hemlock Martinis 07:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
As far as the lines from the movie, the script is available online. I'd be happy to site each line in message if: this is appropriate for a talk page; and someone points me to how this is technically done on Wikipedia (citing individual lines from a script). I'm also happy to site the relevant Biblical verses, I've seen it done on other Wikipedia pages. A few of the Biblical references in my rant are interpretive enough that a biblical commentary about the verse might make a better citation (if this is appropriate for Wikipedia). Kim Cattrall has stated that the much of the Valeris character came from her input, including the name Eris, and that the Val prefix came from Nicholas Meyer. Its also spelled Val'eris in the script. I can find these references. As for motives of the writers, that's a bit trickier. I've never seen the idea of intentional biblical themes expressed> Thus the main reason I did not bother formatting this info for the main page.
The script and the Bible verses is not what I meant, although you would need sources for those as well. I'm talking about the idea of this as a Biblical allegory - do you have sources for that? --Hemlock Martinis 02:27, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Also, "I'm a great one for rushing in where where angels fear to tread" by Kirk is a reference to Alexander Pope's An Essay on Criticism, where Pope writes, "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." For more information, please look at this movie's Wikiquote page, which is one of the finest articles there. --Hemlock Martinis 02:27, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Apocryphal?

The following is written on this page - "Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry was on record that he considered elements of this film to be apocryphal and therefore not necessarily canon, however it is not known exactly what he objected to; the film remains an official part of the Star Trek canon." - but I was sure that that was said about Star Trek V, not VI?? I mean, the film was (I believe) only finished 3 days before Gene Roddenbury's death, so it seems like very little time to make such a comment, although Memory Alpha does state "Gene Roddenberry saw the movie three days before he died. According to William Shatner's Star Trek Movie Memories, Roddenberry, after seeing the film, gave thumbs up all around, and then went back and phoned his lawyer, angrily demanding a full quarter-hour of the film's more militaristic moments be removed from the film, but Gene died before his lawyer could present his demands to the studio."... the part in the article is cited to "Star Trek Chronology: The History of the Future, revised edition", does anyone have that book to check it? And even if it does say this it may just be an error, as I'm *positive* that exact same statement about parts of the film being apocryphal was made about Star Trek V...ie, the one where they supposedly travel to the centre of the galaxy which'd be roughly half the journey length Voyager had done, etc... Xmoogle 12:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge in stubby article (Khitomer Accords)

It has a small bit of notability, but not nearly enough for its own article, so it should probably go here. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 20:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it should be prodded or merged. There are plot continuity issues meriting it to stand on its own (for example, references in the Klingon war arc on DS9 and the "Second Khitomer Accords" from Insurrection). It doesn't fit neatly into the ST6 article in terms of its place within the overall Star Trek universe. Plus when ST6 ended, the accords did not yet exist - if you recall, the climactic battle took place as the conference was just starting. You could merge it into Law in Star Trek, but I don't know if it fits there either. Wl219 (talk) 06:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

What about merging it with Organian Peace Treaty and Treaty of Algeron into a new List of treaties in Star Trek? - Fayenatic (talk) 13:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I would be cool with that too, it would make sense, and would round up a few stubby articles, so feel free. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 03:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
That's a good idea, go for it (let me clarify that as go for the list of treaties suggestion).--UESPArules (talk) 01:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't believe it would be appropriate here, tbh, it's a topic which is more than just part of this film. I think that if we could focus on simply improving the Khitomer Accords article it would be better. -Toon05 23:04, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Rura Penthe

Someone seems to have tagged this merge but then not discussed it (grr!) but I personally believe it would be a bad merge, as Rura Penthe is mentioned in Enterprise and an episode takes place there, so it has meaning beyond this one film. I will remove the merge as it has been up there for ages. SGGH speak! 21:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

It was PRODded and nearly deleted; I merged it into the relevant List of planets instead. - Fayenatic (talk) 22:30, 2 June 2008 (UTC)