Talk:Stanisław Bułak-Bałachowicz

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[edit] Cruelty

A quote from Mikhail Meltyukhov, "Советско-польские войны. Военно-политическое противостояние 1918—1939 гг."

removed by Irpen on 00:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC) to show Molobo an example of avoiding extensive quotes. --Irpen 00:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I will add the info to the article. Just brought it up here, so that it is not stricken out. --Irpen 02:56, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Please translate it to English so that other editors can read your quote.

--Molobo 23:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, the fact that the guy could drink all night and was still battle-worthy the following day is notable enough. //Halibutt 22:59, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Translation of the relevant part.

"One Polish officers wrote in the letter to his wife about B-B: "This is the person without ideology. The bandit and the murderer and his comrades - subbordinates are just like that too. They know no shame and are similar to barbarians... I witnessed throwing the cut off heads of Bolsheviks under his feet... I drank with him all night long and in the moring he with his group and me with my regiment went to the fighting. The massacre of Bolsheviks was horrific."

cited to Mikhutina, I. V. Polish-Soviet War, 1919-1920, ISBN 5900698122 (in Russian). --Irpen 00:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Although It certainly an excting story as Wiki rules go, exceptional claims require exceptional sources. So can I have some more sources confirming this ? --Molobo 00:16, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Molobo, this is an exceptional source! A first hand account, a diary, of the direct witness. --Irpen 00:18, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I don't see this as exceptional source. This is an unsourced letter by unknown person, with unknown date, unknown place, unknown skirmish, unknown circumstances. Who knows maybe it has as much credibility as your previous revelations about "slaughter" of defencless Russian soldiers in Warsaw which proved to be false. Like I said please provide more sources. --Molobo 00:22, 16 May 2006 (UTC) Oh and a quote from me: [1] Sprzeciwił się on władzy radzieckiej, gdy ta krwawo rozprawiła się z powstaniem chłopskim na tym terytorium. Po prostu odmówił zabijania chłopów He opposed Soviet authorities when they decided to deal bloodly with uprising of peasents on this territory . He simply refused to kill peasents. --Molobo 00:22, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I like that one actually. And the part Irpen did not translate is nice as well: in June the Polish Red Cross filed a complain to the International Red Cross concerning the Red Army's taking of civilian hostages in Berdyczów, Żytomierz and Kiev. Those were taken and transported deep behind the front lines; during their entry to Berdyczów "the Red Army men took all sick and wounded from the local Red Cross hospital, not sparing many of the medical personnel". "The Bolshevists interrogate the prisoners, in violation of the rules of war". On the other hand the Polish Army was not free from such excesses either. - and here goes the translated part. I'd only add that execution of hostages by the Red Army was a wider phenomenon. Even now there is a monument in Daugavpils to several dozen burghers from Wilno, who were taken hostage by the Reds and then murdered there. Not to mention the execution of prisoners of war, which was done on a daily basis. //Halibutt 00:27, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed the site of Belarussian minority in Poland contains some usefull historic articles about Belarussians people's resistance to Bolshevik invasion of their country. I look forward to translating them. --Molobo 00:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Halibutt, to begin with, why do you think I provided the full quatation, including the reciprocal accusations on the Soviets? Exactly to make sure I preserve the context. Molobo requested the translation and I provided what's relevant to this article. I removed the original because of a related discussion with Molobo at talk:Soviet partisan to show him an example. I simply, didn't want to spend time translating the piece irrelevant for this article. I appreciate your taking time to translate another part. Besides, it shows that Meltyukhov is not a POV writer and presents claims made by all sides. It's just that not everything is relevant to this article here.

As for treatment of prisoners of war, Halibutt, this is totally irrelevant. And you really don't want to raise the issue. I have plenty of info on the Tuchola, dubbed the "death camp" at the time from within Poland itself. I will get to it in a proper time. In the meanwhile, I am surprized that you are not eager to include the first-hand witness info in the article. Fine, I will add it myself. --Irpen 00:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh Tuchola. We cleared that up in Poland with Russian historian's help : [2] I am going to sleep now, but I am sure somebody friendly will translate later the results of joint work by Polish and Russian historians. --Molobo 01:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Irpen, I don't like including first hand witness' testimonies into the article ever since certain person explained to me at the Wołodarka page that first hand witnesses are not credible. //Halibutt 09:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Halibutt, you manage to keep amazing me even though I thought I know you well by now. First of all, you persisted with your unreliable account in the Volodarka article and expulsed me from there. Too bad no one is interested in this event to bring Volodarka to normalcy. Recently, Piotrus wrote to me that Davies' WERS does not mention Volodarka at all. Similarly, I didn't find it in two books about the war I read, so it might be that this was anything but important at all rather than the usual "polish victory", the usual end of any Polish encounters with anyone, and that may explain why no one shows any interest in that article.

However, if you dare to bring up my position at Volodarka article's talk regarding the witness accounts, please at least don't distort it frivolously. This is exactly what I said: " However, this is the memoires of the low-level officer. It might be interesting for factual info, but at this level people lack the perspective to draw global conclusions." Clear enough? I hope now it is also clear who is ... what was the word you used then? I think you said "lying". Take care and I will make sure this info is in the article as well as other things I found (sourced) about public exectuion this guy, dubbed "Bat'ka" just like the modern president of Belarus, carried at the territories he controlled by his so called "army". --Irpen 09:01, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I added a reference that called the battle a Polish victory. You claimed that no reference calls it a victory, even though you knew it's not true. You lied. Perhaps I should've called it with some other fancy word. You missed with the truth? You failed to mention the true state?
But let's get back to the topic: if that officer was unable to tell whether he withdrawn after the battle or was it the Russians to withdraw, then how come this guy is more reliable? //Halibutt 09:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)