Talk:StandWithUs

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[edit] Organization structure

I've been trying to clarify the structure of this organization, and all the information about it is now properly cited to source documents. All requests for citations have now been dealt with. Are there any substantive objections to the information at this point? --John Nagle 16:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

We have a citation problem raised by Jayjg (talk · contribs) again. If the exact details of the organizational structure aren't cited in detail, he complains of "original research" and removes them.[1] If the details are properly cited, he complains they are "trivia" and removes them.[2] --John Nagle 21:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Database searches are ephemeral, and original research. Cite a real source. And I didn't "remove" the trivia, I put it in the proper place in the article and made it accurate. Jayjg (talk) 21:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
It's an official records database of Los Angeles County. That's a reliable source. It is "authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." It's not like getting information from Google.
We're in this mess because StandWithUs doesn't give many details on their web site of who they are, or who runs them. They have multiple web sites, most of which are described as "organizations", although it's not clear if these "organizations" have actual members or any independent existence. From the web site, you can sign up for the mailing list or donate money, but not join the organization. On their "news" page, they do have a list of "Articles By Roz Rothstein, SWU National Director"[3], so we have a second source for that info and don't actually have to pull that out of their Form 990 filing. --John Nagle 21:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Database searches are not properly verifiable, as databases are dynamic, and there is no guarantee that their contents will be the same from one search to the next. Also, using them is original research; as I said, we need something that is not ephemeral. Jayjg (talk) 22:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
(coming here from the WP:RS discussion)Looking at the LA County records for a non-profit registration is not original research, ephemeral, or dynamic. I don't understand why it's important to the article, but it's not original research. A business records database is a primary source, and using it is source based research. I don't see it used in a way that violates OR (and again, said twice, I don't see why it is important to the article, either.) SchmuckyTheCat
A search is research, and there's no way of guaranteeing the results will be consistent. We need secondary sources. Jayjg (talk) 02:42, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
From WP:NOR:

However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia.

(removing indent)We have no prohibition against research, it is original research that is the problem. This kind of dry recitation is exactly how a primary source should be used. Using a database like this, in fact, is encouraged. This is a government run database, a digital version of their own paper records. It is beyond belief to think this would be inconsistent, and in fact, this kind of source is stronger than any secondary source, which would presumably have gotten the information from the same place. SchmuckyTheCat

The reason for the dry recitation of detail is that Jayjg (talk · contribs) at various times put a {{fact]} tag on the item and, separately, reverted it, repeatedly, claiming "original research". So it was necessary to document the information in excruciating detail to satisfy those repeated demands, as can be seen from the edit history. It's apparently very important to Jayjg (talk · contribs) that StandWithUs not be identified as a d/b/a name used by the Israel Emergency Alliance, although it's not clear why. The actual situation is that the Israel Emergency Alliance is a California nonprofit corporation, operating under various d/b/a names. --John Nagle 04:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
It is unimportant to me what the context for or against is. Dry recitation is a proper use of a primary source, don't excuse it!
Jayjg, is there a contextual reason this shouldn't be in the article? Spell it out to me like I'm dumb, uninterested, and a non-participant with no background, cuz all of the above is true for this article. Expressing a rational argument aimed at a non-involved audience may clear the air. SchmuckyTheCat 07:28, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
The reason in this specific case is that John Nagle was doing his usual original research; he linked to a webpage that said nothing, and invited the reader of the article to, I suppose, do a search on a database. That already means that the material is not verified. Further, he used this non-verification to claim that the "Israel Emergency Alliance" was a "parent" of StandWithUs; even if one searches the database, one finds no such fact in it. Jayjg (talk) 23:14, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I think I've identified the problem. Searching for relevant info, I found that there was a controversy last year over one of the "Israel Emergency Alliance" organizations, "Librarians for Fairness".[4]. Someone had noticed that the domain for that group was registered by an LA-based PR firm, "Rothstein & Memsic". This generated a claim that it was an astroturf organization created by the PR firm, and some controversy. But the only evidence available at the time was the domain registration WHOIS record, and the people making that claim backed down. More information is now available. The executive director of StandWithUs is Rosalin Rothstein, identified as "Roz Rothstein" on the StandWithUs site. The "Rothstein" in "Rothstein & Memsic" is Jerry Rothstein.[5]. They are husband and wife.[6][7]. Anybody want to write a "Controversy" section? --John Nagle 01:10, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
John Nagle, we've been through this many times before. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that cites reliable sources. It is not a tabloid newspaper, and we are editors, not investigative journalists. Please save your crusading muck-raking for Electronic Intifada. Jayjg (talk) 03:11, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

At the risk of reigniting this dispute, I really don't understand what the point is here. All that John Nagle has uncovered is that "StandWithUs" is a legal alias for the Israel Emergency Alliance (whoever they are) -- which means almost the same thing as "also known as". There is a subtle difference between the two terms, but not one I would fight over. The connection between the two groups does not seem to be in dispute here, so either version should be acceptable. What am I missing? -- llywrch 20:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

There are several issues, primarily WP:NOR, but I'll deal with a simpler one for now. A database search turns up the name "StandWithUs". A different search of the same database turns up the name "Israel Emergency Alliance". No search turns up both names simultaneously. Now, how do you get from that Nagle's various claims? Jayjg (talk) 04:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't see an original research problem. SchmuckyTheCat 14:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I've explained my view above. Jayjg (talk) 04:09, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Like I said above, all that database search does is show that the two groups are the same -- which the article states at the moment, & IIRC which is your preferred version. For the moment, let's set the matter of original research aside: what are the other reasons one phrase is preferable to the other? I really want to know. -- llywrch 19:45, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Which are the two phrases you are referring to? Jayjg (talk) 04:09, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Based on this diff, it appears that John Nagel's preferred version is (cleaned up)
  • "StandWithUs is a fictitious business name registered in Los Angeles County, California of the California nonprofit corporation 'Israel Emergency Alliance'." Your preferred version is
  • "StandWithUs is also known as 'Israel Emergency Alliance'."
Outside of John's version providing information about legal status -- & being longer -- I don't see a significant difference between the two versions. Or am I comparing the wrong versions? -- llywrch 22:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources?

Are there any actual sources for this article?Proabivouac 23:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. We have their IRS Form 990 filing, three of their web sites, eight of their affiliates/subunits' web sites, and two published references. We used to have the details of their Los Angeles fictitious name filing in the article, too. What else do you think is needed?
Here are a few more links:
  • Israel Ministry of International Trade, invitation to joint briefing with StandWithUs. [8]
  • Jewish Journal, "StandWithUs offers Israel 101 guide to help students confront anti-Zionist rhetoric" [9]
  • World Jewish News Agency, "StandWithUs Premiere" [10] --John Nagle 00:26, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Now I see what triggered this. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Antoni Dunin (2nd nomination). Look for "OK, go to the StandWithUs article and find me at least one independent secondary source in it. Then we may talk about justice. greg park avenue 23:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)". There's an AfD in progress over a bio article about some minor member of the Polish nobility circa WWII. That's a notability issue. StandWithUs doesn't have a notability problem; they're an active, high-visibility organization. --John Nagle 00:51, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Added two more sources, removed {{sources}} tag.--John Nagle 04:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] StandWithUs on CNN

StandWithUs got some visibility on CNN Monday. They were one of the groups organizing a protest at Columbia University against Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.[11]. CNN showed some of their protest signs. Many related stories in Google. --John Nagle 05:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)