Talk:Stalin's antisemitism

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[edit] POV

This is an extraordinarily POV article. If you don't cite references for some of these claims within a reasonable space of time, I shall simply remove them. Mgekelly - Talk 06:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Your ignorance will not give you power, colleague. 75% you may find in wikipedia. Two books are cited. If you have particular questions, ask them. Wholesale threats are hardly wise. Also, I'd suggest you to practice a bit in usage of google search before questioning something. `'mikka (t) 06:40, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
My intention was not to 'threaten' anyone, but simply to inform about my plan of action. I am not querying things either taken from Stalin's works, or with page references to the Russian work cited. I will go back and flag the individual facts that I think should be referenced. Wikipedia is not in itself a valid reference, I don't think. Mgekelly - Talk 06:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Your previous plan was read as threat of vandalism. If we start running around and "simply remove" things we don't like, we will be quickly blocked from editing for disruption. Tagging is reasonable, deletion is not. `'mikka (t) 07:06, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, I can completely see how you could have misunderstood my intentions there. The fact is though that often short articles like this have been written by someone who takes no further interest in them. In any case,
Disputed text can immediately be removed entirely or moved from the article to the talk page for discussion.
as per Wikipedia:Citing sources, which is all I was talking about, since I found several claims in this contentious. I'm glad that you are so conscientious with this article, mikkalai. Mgekelly - Talk 07:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
"conscientious" would be a rather strong word. I simply happen to know what it speaks about. At the same time I know that I don't know all. If you have particular problems, point them out. `'mikka (t) 07:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
1.This edit [1] looks rather peculiar, for I have citations for most important claims (Radzinski's book namely, if someone asks, I may find original Russian passages, it's available online). Secondly, what is not directly referenced, comes mostly from article *History of the Jews in Russia and Soviet Union#Under Stalin .281922-1953.29, which was also mentioned by me.
2. Extraordinarily POV? Facts, please. The fact that this article uncovers Stalin's acts, which many people would like to 'forget' doesn't make it biased. Also, most information comes from Wikipedia, different articles on similar subjects (one might look the see also links before starting complaining).--Constanz - Talk 07:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I assure you Constanz that I do find this article to be POV, in that it doesn't feature the defence given for Stalin's policies. I can't really be bothered to add it myself though, so I'm going to quit griping at you guys now. Mgekelly - Talk 08:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
to quit griping at you is a reasonable step. Nevertheless, I look forward to seeing which evidence one can bring forth to feature the defence given for Stalin's [anti-Semitic state terror] policies.--Constanz - Talk 08:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, it depends how you understand the word "defence". For starters, whinning about "Stalin's [anti-Semitic state terror]" is simply ridiculous if one compares numbers of russians and jews killed by stalin. The "anti-Semitism" was a mere coincidence withing the overall stalin's politics, but jews label everything what against them with this word, so "anti-S" it be. But the main issue was Stalin's actions agains everything that threathened his total control. In this particular case it was world Jewry (and I don't buy some of Radzinski's wild fantasies). `'mikka (t) 07:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Mikkalai. Let me try to rephrasse this: the fact that he persecuted a lot of Russians did not prevent him from persecuting Georgians, Chechens, Ukrainians, Poles, Balts... (long and somber list) The Jews are not the first and not the last in this list. So yes, he was exhibiting antisemitic behavior along with anti-Ukrainian, etc. ←Humus sapiens ну? 08:05, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I haven't claimed Stalin was an anti-semite. He was just totalitarian dictator and a mass murderer, and after some time he decided to 'deal with' Jews. (Radzinski has also emphasised pragmatic motifs behind the campaign). But all of this remains, of course, a subject to debate.The "anti-Semitism" was a mere coincidence withing the overall stalin's politics, but jews label everything what against them with this word, so "anti-S" it be. But the main issue was Stalin's actions agains everything that threathened his total control. -- it's possible.--Constanz - Talk 16:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
One my sentence is left unclear: it was world Jewry. Here I don't have in mind a conspiracy theory. The fact was that Jews of Russia, by maintaining contacts abroad were a breach of Soviet information blockade. This blockade was vital in the success of the indoctrination of soviet citizens that the soviet life is better than in the world of capitalism. `'mikka (t) 17:09, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed move

Since this article describes this particular aspect of Stalinist politics rather than Joseph Stalin per se, IMHO it would be a more appropriate title. To avert potential concerns: I am not sympathetic towards Stalin, just trying to make this entry more encyclopedic. ←Humus sapiens ну? 11:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

This article does not describe an "aspect" of "stalinist politics". It explains an aspect of "Stalin's politics". "Stalinism" is basically a political shorthand for "Stalin's dictatorship" or something like Stalin's dictatorship. Any attempts to bring some special meaning to the word "stalinism" is game of words. In relative terms "Brezhnevism and anti-Semitism" was a more pronounced trend within its context, i.e., within the respective scope of the events of both periods. `'mikka 19:07, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I removed the move tag here for lack of interest. In the future please follow all of the steps at WP:RM including creating a survey area. Thanks. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I've moved to Stalinism and antisemitism. Constanz - Talk 15:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
No, you have not moved anything. You have done cut-and-pasteing to make it appear as a move. This may be a copyright violation, as you are attributing work by others to yourself. If you think there is consensus on the move, ask some administrator to do it, by placing it on Wikipedia:Requested moves under Uncontroversial proposals. Otherwise follow the full WP:RM. -- Petri Krohn 10:56, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
You will not move anything. This article has its scope defined by its title. "Stalinism and Anti-Semitism" title would imply some correlations between Stalinism and Anti-Semitism, not just a series of pogroms during Stalin's rule, which may quite well be covered in the History of the Jews in Russia and Soviet Union. `'mikka 19:07, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Petri made a funny statement here: This may be a copyright violation, as you are attributing work by others to yourself - perhaps he might have looked the history of contributors at first?
As to Mikka: "Stalinism and Anti-Semitism" title would imply some correlations between Stalinism and Anti-Semitism - in Russia today (but not in the West) this correlation clearly exists. Constanz - Talk 16:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article title

The article was specifically intended to write (and actually writes) about antisemitism of Stalin, which is a broadly discusssed topic. Anti-semitism in the USSR is covered in the History of the Jews in Russia and Soviet Union. No need to expand the scope of this article. We don't have and hardly intend to have articles Socialism and antisemitism, Maoism and antisemitism, Liberalism and antisemitism, Anarchism and antisemitism, Radicalsim and antisemitism. `'mikka 16:42, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Out of those you numbered, most simply wouldn't do, due to lack of material.
I hesitate copying the 'CPRF section' into History of Jews: the sections seems to particular for an overview.Constanz - Talk 17:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I've found a better title than the narrow title Stalin's antisemitism. By Stalinism and antisemitism we can see both past and present, since Stalinism is by no means a phenoimenon of the past. I think Humus first suggested this title. Constanz - Talk 15:07, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
The title "Stalin's antisemitism" is POV because it implies that he was an antisemite which is not a fact. I suggest we rename it to "Stalin and antisemitism" Nekto 18:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
"not a fact"? Did you read the article? If someone really makes some general sense I suggest you to write an article History of the Jews during the period of Stalinism or something, a subarticle for History of the Jews in Russia and Soviet Union. The word "and" is a contentless arbitrary juxtapositon, kinda "cabbages and Kings". `'mikka 19:15, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The article doesn't provide us with a single solid proof of supposed Stalin's antisemitism. I see here a lot of speculation and words like "supposedly", "suspicious" and claims like "the use of "anti-Zionism" could not obscure the antisemitic content of these campaigns" and finally Radzinsky's hypothesis. Also the article is poorly referenced - for example what is the source for the Stalin's order for execution of thirteen of the most prominent Yiddish writers? Now the whole article looks like agitprop. Anyway I will not participate here since the topic is not that interesting for me. I'm sorry to disturb you ... Nekto 19:41, 17 January 2007 (UTC)