Talk:St Kilda, Scotland

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"The St Kildians may be ranked among the greatest curiosities of the moral world." Kenneth MacAuley (1764) The History of St Kilda.

Contents

[edit] Early Talk

The article states that only Rockall is further from the mainland, yet if you look at a map, The Shetlands are clearly further away. People should check facts before scribbling what ever they think on here.

What are the facts then? They are not as clear cut as you may believe. The Shetland Islands as a group are closer to the mainland than St Kilda as a group. Only if you look at the main islands of the groups, or if you do not consider Fair Isle a part of the Shetlands (this is no clear issue either), then the Shetlands are further from the mainland than St Kilda. You should look better at the map before scribbling what ever you think on here.--Ratzer 20:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The Place Names of St Kilda / Nomina Hirtensia by Richard Coates, pub. Edwin Mellen, Wales 1990 states that the kelda well hypothesis is the most likely source of the name. Caltrop 02:00 Jan 3, 2003 (UTC)

I think it is funny, that scholars come up with all sorts of contrived ideas about where the name "Saint Kilda" could come from, there was no Saint Kilda of course, they think, if they knew anything about the people that lived there and their Gaelic culture they'd know that there are ALOT of places in Ireland and Scotland where Saints no one else has heard of exist, like Saint Barr, on Barr Island in the Hebrides. Saint Kilda prolly IS named after a Saint, who is prolly actually a Christianised pre-Christian Deity (most of the Saints, like our example Saint Barr were more than just names, they had feast days associated with them, could be appropriated for healing or protection of one's animals, too, so they were not just names).

I believe the generally accepted explanation of the name is that it is a corruption of the Norse word skildr meaning "shield."

[edit] area?

What is the overall area of the archipelago?

670 ha according to Haswell-Smith (2004) making it the 50th ranked island by size according to his definition. Ben MacDui (Talk) 21:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

Why isn't the name St Kilda as used in the Ordnanace Survey grid reference NF095995 and every book I've ever seen on the subject? It seems that only widkedia-derived articles use this spelling. --JBellis 18:39, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

The name St Kilda is actually commonly used. Ordnance Survey prefer to use native names for places, and St Kilda always has been (and still is) Hiort to Gaelic speakers. Lianachan 13:49, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Location

St Kilda, while remote, is still part of Scotland... Does anyone know?

  • What is its postcode and area telephone number?
  • What is its constituency?
  • What is its local authority?

None of this really matters as long as no-one lives there permanently but it would interesting to find the answers.

It'll be Western Isles council, and the same for constituency. Grinner 10:52, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Postcodes - the Geoplan Postcode Atlas does not show St. Kilda (not surprising) but it would probably have a HS prefix as the Western Isles. Mail to the military base would get a BFPO address, I suppose.Tony Corsini 09:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Postcode: Possibly "HS" but not necessarily routed through the Outer Hebrides. Constituency:

(I don't know why slightly different Gaidhlig forms are used for the different constituencies.

Local authority: Na h-Eileanan Siar

Rockall incidentally falls under the same. --MacRusgail 01:24, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no post code - it is the only habitable place run by the UK that doesn't have one. The military base has been privatised, no army there now and sadly you cannot get a drink in the Puff Inn anymore - the private company will not allow it. Glad you liked my photos - I have loads more if you want !! Stephen Hodges 86.27.177.218 22:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] which Marquess?

In 1931, the Marquess of Bute was the 4th, who died in 1947; his son the 5th Marquess died in 1956. Which of them bought St Kilda? —Tamfang 16:44, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Thompson, Francis (1970). St Kilda and other Hebridean Outliers. David & Charles. ISBN 071534885X.  says that Sir Reginald MacLeod sold St Kilda to the fifth marquess John Crichton-Stuart, 5th Marquess of Bute--JBellis 19:55, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Island Template

I have created a Template:Infobox Scottish island for use with Scottish islands which is based on the existing Template:Infobox Scotland place but which contains parameters which may be more useful for smaller islands which don't have their own police force or Lord Lieutenant. See Talk:Hebrides for more information and Dubh Artach for an example. Ben MacDui (Talk) 21:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Having created an island infobox for St Kilda, I am intending to merge this with the existing Scottish infobox. I don't see any point in having both. Ben MacDui (Talk) 17:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up

Watchers of the page will have noted the lengthy addition to the History section posted by an Anon IP. I have dropped this individual a short note requesting that they provide references. This section was already atrocious in this regard and will almost certainly need splitting into various sub-sections. I am planning various other additions in the hope of getting the article up to GA standard sometime this year. If others are planning anything similar it might be helpful if we co-ordinated our efforts. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I have transferred material over to History of St Kilda, perhaps work can be done on making the main page section shorter. --MacRusgail 10:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gaelic spellings

I'm not sure if some of the Gaelic placenames are spelled correctly although these may have been taken directly from ordinance survey maps, copying the incorrect spelling. The article mentions 'Stac an Armin' a number of times yet surely according the universal Gaelic spelling rule leathann ri leathann agus caol ri caol (broad with broad and slender with slender) this should be 'Stac an Armain'? An Muimhneach Machnamhach 09:56, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

It is possible that some Gaelic spellings are incorrect, but could you give an example? 'Stan an Armin' may well be an anglicisation, but it is certainly the usual spelling. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I have been trying to tidy up some of the spellings. Some of the names are semi-anglicised of course. Also "á/ó" should be replaced with "à/ò", as acute accents have been "officially" eliminated from modern Scottish Gaelic in the last few years by the Gaelic Orthographic Convention. I think, where possible, however diacritics should be included. NB - I tend to agree with An Muimhneach about caol ri caol etc. This is basic Gaidhlig.
One more thing. I don't know a great deal about the subject, but I suspect the St Kildans/Hiortaich probably spoke a highly unusual dialect, and this may be reflected in names of a type you wouldn't see elsewhere. --MacRusgail 18:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
If a source can be provided then by all means let us include the alternate Gaelic spelling of Stac an Armin. However I know of no English-speaking source that uses 'Armain'. Even Martin calls it 'Stack-Narmin'. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:21, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, the Ordinance Survey has a lot to answer for. They've bastardised some names beyond recognition, and I think I'd prefer a spelling like "Stack-Narmin", which at least looks anglicised than one like "Stac an Armin" which looks Gaidhlig, but isn't. "Armin" wouldn't be in a dictionary "àrmann" or "àrmainn" (genitive) would be. --MacRusgail 10:45, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree, though not to the extent that the British Ordinance Survey did with placenames in Ireland. It is clear that the British had Gaelic speakers with a knowledge of written Gaelic working with them in the Scottish Gàidhealtachd which mustn't have been the case in Ireland. Even when the Ordinance Survey of Ireland was founded shortly after independence, the OSI continued using the corrupt names. However, one must admit that the English corruptions have now gained some official status although I seem to remember reading somewhere that the British OI are now in the process of revising all of their maps and are working with Gaelic speakers to correct any spelling errors in Gaelic placenames. Seeing as St Kilda never had a resident population of native English speakers, I think it best to have the indigenous Gaelic names first with the English corruptions following in brackets. I have a book at home called 'St Kilda and other Hebridean Outliers' published in the late sixties, I think. Fascinating reading. Any of you familiar with it? Are there any articles on the Gaelic of the St Kildans? If so, it's inclusion in the article would greatly add to it, I think.

An Muimhneach Machnamhach 15:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know much about the subject, but the odd word turns up in Dwelly etc with (St Kilda) after it. I have made an effort to add in grave accents where necessary (acutes are out the window now). As Stac an Armin seems to be the common spelling, I have located the article there. Hamish Haswell-Smith for all his great work in his book on all the islands makes a few spelling mistakes, and other minor errors. --MacRusgail 16:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I certainly agree that a something about the Gaelic of the St Kildans would be in order - although this could be whole article in itself too. However we must stick to common modern English language usage even if it is a 'corruption'. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Point taken. But would it not be a good idea to include the original Gaelic names as well? Just did a quick Google and found this: http://www.kilda.org.uk/weekildaguide/guide23.htm Not sure how accurate it is, though and it's only a tiny handful of words. Not so sure 'faire' is a unique St Kildan word. Surely 'faire' just means watching out for something, surveying? And the St Kildan meaning of 'crathadh' would seem to be just a variation on the original 'shaking, vibrating', if it is actually originally 'croitheadh' which as a Munsterman I pronounce 'crathadh'. Can't find any references to academic papers on St Kildan Gaelic. Is there a Scottish equivalent of the Dublin Institute of Advanced Studies? They brought out monographs on the Gaelic of Arran, Kintyre and East Perthshire as well as a list of words from South Uist a number of years ago. An Muimhneach Machnamhach 09:14, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I support providing the 'the original Gaelic names' - assuming that you are not suggesting we provide more than one Gaelic variant, which might work as a footnote but would make the text rather hard going. I'm sorry I can't advise on formal Scottish studies of 'Erse' - I am lamentably ignorant in this regard. Ben MacDui (Talk) 17:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template, New 'History of' page and GA candidature

Good work on the creation of the template and the new Stac pages. However, I'm not sure what the current purpose of the History of St Kilda page is - it simply repeats what exists here. Do you intend to extend it? As this article builds up to GA candidature - which I hope is imminent, assuming it becomes more stable soon. My suggested strategy is as follows - if the article passes GA and continues to grow the easiest way to reduce its size would be to summarise the Architecture section and move some of that material onto the individual island articles. I don't think the existing history section can be summarised without losing material that is important to an understanding of St Kilda in general. Ben MacDui (Talk) 14:34, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The idea will be to shorten the text on the main page, and have a link going into the history page. The computer's complaining that the article is too long, so most of the history stuff can go into the appropriate article. There can be a separate article for the geography of the island etc. --MacRusgail 15:39, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

The computer is not 'complaining', it is only pointing something out. A substantial percentage of GA candidates are 'long'. This is, given a little time is a possible FA candidate which would need the whole story to be told. The history section is fine the way it is. It is really not OK to have a 'main' redirect, to a page which contains no new or useful information and has none of the features of a credible article such as lead section, references or categories. (Sorry I see it has two. BM) As I said above, by all means expand the new page. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Agree entirely. Been following the article's progress (pretty good, BTW) and a redirect that doesn't provide added value is pointless. Actually, I think you're not far from FA standard right now. Regards --Bill Reid | Talk 08:24, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I use "complaining" in a metaphorical sense! Of course it doesn't add any information - the point was to transfer the history section over there, and make the section on the main page considerably shorter, as has been done with other articles, e.g. Scotland, Devon etc. The history should have its own page. It isn't a redirect, by the way, but a new article.--MacRusgail 14:37, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

You could even start on GA now or at least a peer review. Peer reviews take forever with the current backlog anyway. All that's needed is some copyediting, looks like. nadav 01:52, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fauna

Can I suggest small articles be written on the wren and the two mice of the islands? --MacRusgail 19:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

By all means - I think they could make excellent articles. Ben MacDui (Talk) 18:51, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Added pictures of buildings

I added some pictures of newer buildings, and the hideous tracking station. I think St Kilda is too often portrayed as a wildlife reserve, and/or somehow prehistoric/mediaeval place - perhaps a few of the images may alleviate that notion.--MacRusgail 18:20, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough - good images. Ben MacDui (Talk) 07:42, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image size

I have to find a lot of the images are possibly too small now, but then again I am short sighted. On some of them it's hard to see much detail. --MacRusgail 16:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Norse heritage

Although there seem to be few, or no, primary sources dating from the Norse period, it does seem apparent that the islands were affected by Norse expansionism.

Firstly, there is the evidence of placenames such as Soay, which point at settlement. Secondly, the island's parliament is interesting, because I'd suggest tentatively that it resembles the þings of Iceland, Faroe and the Isle of Man. Thirdly, I was interested to hear that the island's mouse is similar, if not related to a type in Mykines, which would suggest further connections. Fourthly, the cleitean, while a Gaelic word, is obviously cognate with klettr (?sp) which is Norse for something rocky.

It's difficult to find solid evidence, but the placenames, and the dialect suggest that there must have been some kind of settlement, albeit minor in the islands. --MacRusgail 20:28, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How old are the cleitean?

One should be careful not to endow the cleitean currently visible with great antiquity: Their lifespan, in Hirta's harsh environment, cannot possibly have exceeded a few centuries at most, provided of course they were properly maintained (which, by the way, is no longer the case for most of them today since the departure of the last St.Kildans).

Archaeological evidence has revealed several periods of occupation:

- the Bronze Age;

- the Iron Age;

- a period extending from the 6th-8th centuries until the 15th century in Gleann Mor in the northern part of the island;

- the 10th century (brooches of the Viking era),

but no proof of any continuity has been forthcoming.

Two incised crosses were found in reused stone blocks, the first one in a village house (could it not have been a foundation stone?), the second one in a cleit, but it really takes an act of faith to see vestiges of early christianity in them.

See Alex Morrison, An Introduction to the Later Settlement History of St. Kilda, dans A Rock and a Hard Place; Perspectives on the Archaeology of St. Kilda, Scotland, World Archaelogical Congress 4, University of Cape Town, 10th-14th January 1999.

C. Lassure (cerav@pierreseche.com)
As of now a contributor to Wikipedia
--Christian Lassure 21:59, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Successful good article nomination

I am glad to report that this article nominee for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of August 15, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Yes, very well-written (I made a couple of minor changes).
2. Factually accurate?: Accurate, also well-referenced
3. Broad in coverage?: Yes. One suggestion- I'd like the article to include the present name of " Skildar, the old name for an island much nearer the west coast of the Outer Hebrides." from the "Origin of name" section
4. Neutral point of view?: Yes.
5. Article stability? Yes
6. Images?: A very impressive and comprehensive collection of good-quality images.

If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a GA review. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations. — Lurker (said · done) 14:03, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] John Sands

Sands visited several Scottish islands including St Kilda and Papa Stour. He is variously described as a journalist who worked for Punch magazine, a poet and an MP. He may have come from and/or been MP for Ormiston.

I am drafting a short biography article about him and have gleaned some basic info, but I can't find any definitive corroborating evidence he was ever an MP. He was possibly one in 1875 and assuming Ormiston refers to the village in East Lothian, it was part of Berwickshire (UK Parliament constituency). It has a list of the MPs that held the seat - John Sands isn't included.

The sources I have which mention him being an MP are:

  • Maclean, Charles (1977) Island on the Edge of the World: the Story of St. Kilda. Edinburgh. Canongate. Page 117.
  • "Perthshire - L Archives 2003-2" Rootsweb.com

Details of his political career are scant and some sources that refer to his St Kilda visit at length do not mention it all. It is possible there was another Johns Sands with whom Maclean confused the writer who visited St Kilda.

If anyone has/can find any other details please let me know. Many thanks. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Fixed - see John Sands. Ben MacDuiTalk/Walk 21:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedit

This article, or a prior version of it, was copyedited by the League of Copyeditors on 22:13, 19 February 2008 (UTC). The League is always in need of editors with a good grasp of English to review articles. Visit the Project page if you are interested in helping.

Copyedited by Finetooth – 04:41, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Proofread by Galena11 (talk) – 22:12, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox conversions

When I was copyediting, I noticed two hectare and metre quantities in the Area and Summit section of the infobox that did not have conversions to square miles (or acres) and feet. I think they probably should have conversions, though the infobox has no built-in place for them. Other geographic infoboxes such as the one for Lethbridge, Canada, have built-in lines for conversions. I'm wondering if (a) we should add the conversions to the St Kilda infobox in particular and (b) if the infobox template for Scottish Islands could be improved by adding places for the conversion numbers and units. Finetooth (talk) 04:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I was bold and added them to the infobox. I used acre with hectare and feet with metre, but I was not sure of the abbreviation for acre Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks - according to United States customary units its is just 'acres'. Re (b) above, whilst its is more than likely that an FA adventure will need both units I think its just clutter myself and wouldn't trouble the existing infobox template. In any decent article it will be spelled out in the text anyway, and none of the successful GA's have needed it, so far at least. Ben MacDuiTalk/Walk 12:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

I feel we should go for consistency across the islands and use the {{Template:Infobox Scottish island}}, which may have been developed since this page was started. I have done a mock up. The differences are:

  • no Constituent country or Sovereign state;
  • Title will be St Kilda, Scotland on both infobox and included map;
  • Image in preview becomes the "Street" image rather than the blue map;
  • Map
I think the standard infobox is fine. Can I ask you to upload it?
I note the use of imperial units. I have no difficulty with that but it does create a precedent. (See also below).
Don't know what you mean by preview image... is this some fiendish PC thing?
possibly - info

I think all are OK. To avoid the disambiguation name, it may be worth altering the template to allow another name to be specified, over-riding the default page name. This will also be useful on other pages.

Agreed

The default map (by entering lat/long) will match the other islands, but loose the detailed "vivid blue" map. I have moved that down into the Geography section (with minor change to the position of the Stac Levenish image). Using "Map=Kilda2876.png" adds the blue map in the infobox, but with a map width of only 115px, which is rather small. If there is demand for specific maps, then I think we need to be able to specify a width (up to 280, the infobox width) - again by altering the template. Comments? Finavon (talk) 22:06, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

What's not to like about the blue by the way - is there some kind of Rangers/Celtic thing going on here : )? I don't think it is necessary to keep with the revised infobox. I like the colour but 'Saint Kilda' grates.
- merely to identify the image; I have moved it down, but it can be removed.
Note also discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography#Metric vs Imperial - I will alert all at WP:ISLE asap. Ben MacDuiTalk/Walk 11:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Standard infobox imported into existing page. As has become standard, I have left out the imperial units. Area rank has no meaning for an island group. No more editing for a few days (and not much editing in January, so I don't know when I will get to look at the template). Finavon (talk) 13:25, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your help. Let's discuss the 'former county' issue on your return too. Have a good wiki-break. Ben MacDuiTalk/Walk 18:15, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dashes

I changed some en dashes to em dashes per what I thought was the standard defined at WP:MOSDASH; per Sandy's recent edit I may have misunderstood it. I'll post to her talk page and ask. Mike Christie (talk) 16:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

In all truth it is an area of MOS I have not yet properly understood (or perhaps understood the need for). Every time I try read it I fall asleep at my keyboard. Thank-you for your help - it is much appreciated. (Sorry, that's probably wrong use again). Ben MacDuiTalk/Walk 11:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)