Talk:St. Albans School (Washington, D.C.)

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[edit] Maximilian Schellinger

To 209.116.77.254 and 68.50.248.36:

If you want to explain why Maximilian Schellinger should be added to this article, that would be helpful. Otherwise, this is a very short article for an important school, and it would be appreciated if you could help make it a much better article. [[User:GK|gK ¿?]] 16:28, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions

  1. The article contains imprecise unjustified claims, like "considered one of the finest schools in the United States." What does "finest" mean? Who thinks St Albans is one of the finest? I think such claims should be supported with citations, or removed. In the present case, it ought to be possible to cite some organization's ranking of independent schools. Likewise, what does "excel academically and athletically" mean? (Also, if such a claim is going to be made about NCS, shouldn't it be made in the NCS article?) Because famous alumni and college destinations are given, the reader should be able to infer something about the quality of the school without being told.
    • This was already addressed. Donbas 00:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
    • It should not be difficult to find and link to a source for this. It's regularly ranked in the top 10 by various private school guides. From what I can tell no source is provided right now.
  2. What exactly is the relation between St Albans, NCS, and the Protestant Episcopal Cathedral Foundation? The two schools have their own governing boards, right? Could this be explained?
    • I addressed this. Donbas 00:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  3. Why not list all of the headmasters? I don't think the list is very long.
    • IMO, good idea, but this needs research. Donbas 00:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  4. Should current faculty members be named, if they don't have their own Wikipedia articles?
    • IMO, a select few of the faculty should, just in case they are selected, and also to give perspective on the teaching standards.
    • Might I suggest at least one past faculty member who ought to be noted, influential English teacher Ferdinand Ruge.
  5. The writer-in-residence program might be mentioned, if that is still going on. The first of those writers, Mary Kay Zuravleff, has published two novels, although she did sue the School and does not name the School in the biography at her website.
    • Interesting - perhaps this should stay off to prevent conflict for now, although the WIR is now there.
  6. The Eisenstein fellowship might be mentioned.
    • There are four fellowhips offered by the school, but research needs to be done about this before it goes in.

Donbas 00:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

  1. Is is public verifiable knowledge that Al Gore has cut his ties with St Albans? If not, perhaps it should not be mentioned.
    • I do not know where one could find this information, but the school does quietly aknowledge this fact. Donbas 00:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  2. Why not list the most popular college choices of, say, the ten most recent classes? One class is not much of a sample.
    • IMO, this is obnoxious and snobby and does not need to be on the website.
  3. I thought the School motto was "Pro Ecclesia et pro patria", which would translate "For church and country", not "God". Did somebody change this?
    • You are totally correct, and I explained this Donbas 00:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  4. What exactly is the role of religion at the School?
    • This is addressed Donbas 00:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
  5. Some curiosities might not be out of place in the article. Is there still a Glastonbury Thorn?
    • Perhaps this can go in. Donbas 00:34, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

David Pierce 06:22, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

  1. I realize this is trivial, but if you add people to the alumni list could you please alphabetize them properly. - graball

May I suggest that the tone of the athletics section be changed to something a little more neutral? Many of the statements (such as that the IAC is the best lacrosse league in the country) are a bit exaggerated and, even if true, ought to be supported by some data. For example, the statement that STA is one of the strongest athletic programs in the area could be supported by a documented number of Founder's Cup wins. Statements about specific sports teams should be backed up by specific data such as Washington Post rankings (dated) or specific numbers of IAC championships (give years). I don't personally have the data to make the required corrections. A2a2a2 01:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The section is constantly "improved" to be more boostering for the school's athletics. However, I think you may have to do some searching to get everything you need to make it more accurate. Irrespective of that, it needs to be made into a paragraph, instead of unrelated factoids. Stakhanov

[edit] Moving

This is to give notice that I intend moving this article. It is absurd that this school is at St. Albans School while St. Albans School (Hertfordshire) is qualified. I have not yet decided whether to move the other school here and dab at the top, or make a separate dab page.

The reason it is absurd is that St. Albans School (Hertfordshire) is well over a thousand years old (founded 948), claims the Venerable Bede as a benefactor, is the only school in the English-speaking world that has a former Pope as an alumnus, and is the alma mater of, among others, Stephen Hawking. It isolder than the Norman cathedral in the ancient city whose name it shares. With no disrespect for the Washington school I really do think it defies sense to have the two this way round.

How can it have as a benefactor the Venerable Bede who died circa 735? I agree, however, that this article on the Washington school has an inappopriate NPOV tone, a Wikipedia article should not come across like promotional material that goes so far as to sanctimoniously claim the mantle of Jesus Christ. Tom Cod 22:09, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Declaration of interest: I went to St. Albans School (Hertfordshire). So if any other admins feel like putting the brakes on they should comment here or at my talk page, but I think the above argument is pretty powerful :-) - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 00:34, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The Hertfordshire school is also reached on Wikipedia by typing "St Albans School" alone (without the dot after the "St"). This is in agreement with the School's own website. The Washington school spells its name with a dot after the "St". So St Albans School and St. Albans School can stand together as different articles on Wikipedia, each article providing a link to the other. It's not clear why St Albans School redirects to St. Albans School (Hertfordshire), and not the other way around; it could be the other way around, it seems to me.
—David Pierce 16:28, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] From User Talk:JzG

So, you St. Albans is older, has more illustrious graduates, and is more prestigious; huzzah. My feeling is that the American St. Albans has the unqualified name because it has been around on Wikipedia for much longer - almost a year. Also, Wikipedia stared as a primarily American project, so it makes a little sense that it would go first. So I guess I'm saying in a complicated and sarcastic way that I support the move, with a disambiguation page. After all, both schools have a good relationship and participate in an exchange.

PS, There is also high school in St. Albans, Vermont, although I'm not sure after whom it is named. Donbas 17:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, at least according to legend, the venue of the northernmost action of the American Civil War, where a Southern gentleman in residence took a number of townspeople hostage in order to effectuate the raising of the Confederate flag over the place, striking a blow against insufferable Yankee snobbery.Tom Cod (talk) 22:15, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
That's called "squatter's rights" ;-) I think a dab page is the best answer, especially if there is a third candidate. - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 10:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
  • User: David Pierce suggested that St. Albans in DC remain "St. Albans School", and the St Albans in Hertfordshire be known as the school prefers, as "St Albans School" without a period. This seem like a plan, but St. Albans School (Hertfordhire) should redirect to St Albans School, not the other way around. In this case then I think that a dab is unnecessary. Donbas 18:42, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
  • The problem with that is that the other school also does not usually use the period (it is not the school of St. Alban, it is the school in St Albans -note no period), and in any case the use or otherwise is somewhat arbitrary. A dab page is safer, I think. - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 20:00, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm gonna take this public on the Talk: St. Albans School page so other people interested in the subject can comment. Sound good? I think that a dab is better, but the English public school should retitled as "St Albans School", even if we keep the "(Hertfordshire)" after that. The American private school should be "St. Albans School", even if we add the "(Washington, DC)" as well. Donbas 18:15, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
  • There is a school called "St. Albans City School" [1] in St. Albans, Vermont (city). There is also a "St. Albans Consoldated High School" in St. Albans, Maine [2]. It is the name of New York City's PS36 [3]. There is a St. Albans South Primary School in Victoria [4]. Whether any of these schools are notable, or at least should be mentioned in their respective townships is another issue, debated at Wikipedia:WikiProject Schools and at Wikipedia:Schools. I think they should be looked over, especially for the naming conventions. I like the idea of having the two articles split by country - since all the other ones have more complicated names. I'd love to hear yours and everyone's thoughts.
I think the case for a dab page is made by this point. - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 18:55, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naming Solution?

I propose

Here is my idea for the dab page.

Please comment. Donbas 23:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

As far as we seem to know, there is one St Albans School, and there is one St. Albans School. So far then, there is no need to qualify the names of their articles on Wikipedia with (Hertfordshire) and (Washington) respectively.
The problem is that there are other schools with "St Albans" or "St. Albans" in their names. All such schools should be listed on a disambiguation page. What to call this page? If it is "St Albans School" or "St. Albans School", then the article for the school with this precise name must be changed; and then the other should be changed for symmetry.
Yes, "St. Albans School (disambiguation)" can be used as suggested; but why not just use the existing disambiguation page St. Albans to list St. Albans schools? Or, the name "St. Albans schools" (in the plural) could be used. It seems better to avoid parenthetical qualifications to article titles, unless they are really needed.
In any case, it seems right that St Albans School should link to St. Albans school, and vice versa, and that each should also link to a disambiguation page.
—David Pierce 13:37, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
See above; St Albans School Hertfordshire is the school of the city of St Albans (no period) - look here [5] and you will also see no period. I think the period thing is simply too arbitrary to be used as the distinction, I have seen examples with and without from both institutions. I strongly suggest a dab page at St Albans School, which is the name by which all of them usually refer to themselves, a redirect at St. Albans School to the dab page, a St Albans School (Hertfordshire) and St Albans School (Washington, DC), and links to the various others including the one in New Zealand. All can then link back to the dab page (alone) without further qualification. I will further reiterate my comment that the Hertfordshire school is over a thousand years old and is the only school in the English speaking world to have educated a Pope, so the simple claim of "squatter's rights" on St Albans School (unqualified) is problematic. I'm sure the one in DC is a fine school (and my education at the other one left much to be desired) but as a simple matter of historical fact, the Hertfordshire one is the more significant. - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 14:02, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I think I see the problem here. St. Albans School never, ever refers to itself without a period. Ever. Any time you have seen it withought, it is an error or a technical issue. That would not be proper American English, and most people don't even get why there is no apostrophe before the "s". The only place I can find a no-period spelling is in URLs and HTML headers. I believe you misunderstood me at some point about this. I'm sorry if I'm not clear sometimes.
Furthermore, the issue of significance is irrelevant, since the names are, in fact, spelled differently. I will address it, however. The English one is 10.5 times older, and has graduated a number of highly influential and important people - far, far, far more than are listed on the article - however, the American one has many more links to it and has graduates that are more likely to be searched, since there are more that are currently active, especially in the American Government. Thus, more people are likely to want to see it, even with a redirect to an appropriately qualified article. You give the people what they most likely want, so they most likely do not have to sort through a bajillion dab pages. This is common practice in other areas of Wikipedia, which is why I used it as the basis of my system. If someone accidentally types a period in, they will immediately realize that something is wrong, and the cross-link will work, or the dab. The other "St(.) Albans Schools" are almost invariably small, non-notable, or have other words in the name. I still think that both names should be qualified, with appropriate redirects from the most likely searches. This is in keeping with the Wikiproject:Schools policy on similarly-named schools.
JzG, I thought we were getting along amiably. I stand by my original proposal, and I hope this cleared things up. Donbas 18:16, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
I think you will find on investigation that 1 << 1 bajillion. I stand by the above: the name "St. Albans School" with or without a period is ambiguous, there being at least one school on each of three continents by that name. Normal practice is to place the dab page at the root level unless one is so clearly more notable than the others as to make this redundant, which is clearly not the case here - I call your "several people in Washington" and raise you Tim Rice and Stephen Hawking ;-) I could have just done this boldly. I could use my Super Powers to force my opinion. But I don't work that way. I will look around the project space a bit, but do be aware that the schools project is not the 'pedia, and I do not usually get involved with it. Whether there is a dab at school or schools is immaterial to me, but "St Albans School" is, in usual Wikipedia terms, ambiguous and should be handled as such with proper deference to the much older and much more objectively notable institution. And I hated the place, even if I do have the Old Albanian tie some place. It is easy to get along amiably, just agree with me :-) - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 23:26, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, how about this. I have decided that a dab page is the best option, as we had agreed many years ago. However, this is conditional. That is that my St. Albans articel got vandalized a while back when the intended target was yours. The vandal did correct himself and find his way to the other. I had forgotten this and only our feud reminded me, something a good debate is supposed to do. However this was not a good debate at all. I will only agree if you admit that that last post was extremely condescending. The way you have treated me is not the way to deal with me, someone who is trying to collaborate with you and reach an agreement. Your opening line was just rude and you talked to me like I was a newbie. You may not have meant this, but please consider how you may be percieved.

The WP:Schools/Wikischools thing was actually just to suggest naming based on country/state/city, depending on the notability of the other schools. Also do not mistake what I was saying about notability. I was not saying that either school is more notable, I was merely indicating that because of the schools prominence in academic circles and the influence of alumni in the world right now, it seemed like both deserved equal footing, with both having frontal pages linking to qualified ones. I think that arguing about which school is more notable is not for us to do alone with each other. I feel that both deserved equal standing from the beginnig, because there is no way, despite whether one is more historical than the other, that one is strictly subordinate to the other. In terms of their effect on the world they are definitely peers. In terms of legacy, your St Albans will almost certainly end up with long-term influence because of Hawking and Renfrew.

So, all this to say, I do not want to be your enemy; that's pointless and I leave that job to other people you're having fun with. Just agree to these conditions: you're sorry; St. Albans School (Washington, DC) is always spelled with a period, whereas St Albans School (Hertfordshire) is not usually; that the aformentioned articles will be the names used, for the sake of further clarity; finally, that St Albans School (Hertfordshire) badly needs expanding, since it is an important school with an anemic article in need of a good medievalist.

This is also the first real fight I have ever gotten into on the ol' 'pedia. I'm still really confused about how it happened and got sillyDonbas 02:45, 25 January 2006 (UTC) PS. Graduating Tim Rice is not something to be proud of.

Fight? I wasn't aware we were having a fight, and I'm sorry you thought so. Maybe I was a bit more pushy than usual, I don't know (I was in a hurry perhaps, usually I choose my words with care). There were some smileys in there, after all. Ah well, two great nations divided by a common language, eh? You might miss the cultural reference in my wikisig, my use of language is heavily influenced by people like Douglas Adams (he of "impossibly huge yellow somethings that hang in the air exactly the way bricks don't"), it wouldn't be the first time someone has interpreted a wry aside as ann insult, I suppose, but mostly people get it. Anyway, there was no intention ot insult or condescend.
And I certainly won't dispute that the article on my old school needs expanding. I don't think there's anything in there about the Hat Factory, for example, or the benefactors, or the old house names I sort-of-remember. Or the fact that you ahve to be barred from over thirty pubs before you have to walk too far for a lunchtime pint. No, maybe that should not go in...
And the thing about the periods really isn't a big deal, all I'm saying is that whatever the school might prefer, use of the period by others is largely arbitrary, depending on classical education, I'm guessing, since St. is an abbreviation of Saint and would therefore carry a period if thought of as such. And if I carry on in that vein much longer I'm going to end up having a circular argument with myself, which is unlikely to be terribly productive. Oh well. What was the question again? - Just zis  Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 11:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Thank you. You're a good guy, guy. - Oh I do get the reference. I never thought it was mean-spirited, just sorta arrogant. I'ma go write Philip Frohman, if I finish my Rousseau... see Core Curriculum. I'm sorry I'm being such a stickler about periods - I wasn't sure you understood - just someting in the comments seemed vague. But - we've settled on an idea of how to fix it, let's get the names perfect, so it doesn't have to happen again. Donbas 14:48, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

I'm requesting this page be moved to St. Albans School (Washington) (again), and this be made a disambig page (linking to St Albans School (Hertfordshire)). Only an admin can do the move. --Rob 04:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Two months is not enough time for an important decision. I suggest a straw poll. :0 -Will Beback 07:00, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I tried moving it before, but it gave me an error message (as I'm not an admin, and I tried moving back to a previous name). --Rob 07:10, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Saint Albans logo.jpg

Image:Saint Albans logo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 20:44, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Saint Albans logo.jpg

Image:Saint Albans logo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:58, 26 November 2007 (UTC)