Talk:Squatting

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Squatting article.
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To-do list for Squatting: edit · history · watch · refresh

Sections: Germany - history, Netherlands - history, UK - more history, Expand South America

Ideas: Shift squats mentioned in "list of notable squats" into sections on each country?

Contents

[edit] BSDM?

the article says that "some" Social Centers are hosting BSDM rooms. i visited most squats defined social centers all around Europe in the past 10 years and i never saw nor heard of something like that.

I have heard of groups such as Queeruption doing parties with darkrooms etc in squats such as Africa (Amsterdam) and KOPI (Berlin), but I agree that there are probably not permanent BDSM rooms Mujinga 21:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

wowow! how sexy! however i know some loony left wing squat centres like rampart (east london) or the old theatre near holloway road where the hippies would think they had become nazis for not already having a BDSM room "hey guys! we nazis we dont accept bondage! we are repressing others! no way man thats heavy!" like neil from the young ones TV show. (mira)

[edit] Farmers

Squatters The early squatters were brave farmers who moved out to newly discovered lands in the hope of finding a place they could settle for themselves.

Yeah, brave murderous farmers who stole land from its rightful owners--Native Americans. How is the land "newly discovered" if people have been living their for thousands of years? I'm all for modern squatting of unused buildings and land, but amercian 'pioneers' were just a bunch of greedy losers.
First of all, most Native Americans didn't believe in land ownership, so your first point is moot. And a pluarity of those greedy losers were the "huddled masses yearning to breathe free" that the empires of Europe didn't want anymore, the rest being refugees of the War of Northern Agression. As for murderous, the native tribes had been relegated to reservations by the Yankee government long before the pioneers ever arrived out west. Righteous indignation is all well and good, but it really does behoove one to do a little independent research before spouting what some agenda-driven professor told you.170.215.105.201 06:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Not to mention the Native Americans were savages and not the noble aborigines you'd like to think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.41 (talk) 15:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Two meanings

I would suggest that a distinction be made between squatting (1) as the act of initially settling on Crown land without permission, as in the Australian pastoral expansion or the westward movement in the USA in the nineteenth century, and (2) the more modern, principally urban act, of occupying a building without any right or title. It seems to me that the motivation and methods of these two processes are fundamentally different, and the use of the same term muddies this distinction. So, could we disambiguate between, say, "Squatting (pastoral)" and "Squatting (urban)". I'm not fussed whether the heading refers to the act (squatting) or the person (squatter). Dick 21:16, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think you will find that the "more modern, principally urban act" of occping private property without the owners permission is actually the older usage, adn goes back in english law before the settlement of either Austrialia or the Americas, and applies to both buildings and undeveloped land. Thjis I think that your distinction is incorrect and should not be made. There may be a distinction to be made between squatting on public and private property. Note that "homesteading" in the US westward expansion was not considered squattign -- it was a procedure created by statute where a person family could occupy unclaimed public land of a certian size, and if they lived on it and developed it to a specified standard within a specified time would be granted title, and in the mean time had legal rights to occupy the land. DES 07:42, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

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I think this page is not exactly NPOV. It needs a section on how to get rid of squatters too.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.203.116.246 (talk • contribs) 06:45, 13 August 2005 (UTC+11 hours) (in London the best way is to find a dog that likes the taste of Poland!)

No it doesnt need that info. this isnt a self help guide! it does say how to find an empty property, steal gas/electric and change a lock. (mira)

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[edit] Split to Squatting (pastoral)

Dick's suggestion that a distinction should be made between the two types of squatting that he outlines is quite correct, and he is also correct in stating the placement of both types within the same article "muddies the distinction". The attempt by DES to counter this is way off the mark. The question of which type of squatting is older than the other is totally irrelevant and misses the point. Talking of "homesteading" in the USA is another red herring; this is an Australian term. In Australia for much of the 19th century squatters were in the upper echelons of society. Their activities were illegal for only a short period, but the term stuck. It started off as derogatory, but very rapidly became a badge of honour. At their height these guys (& the occasional woman) were the feudal landlords of vast domains, and held great sway - economically, socially & politically - in Australia. They are as different as chalk & cheese to the essentially urban & underclass squatters to which most of this article refers. By the way the term "squatter" to describe a large land-owner is still in use in Australia in rural areas. In cities the term would more likely apply to the 2nd category (as outlined by Dick). Hopefully common sense will prevail & this article is split into the two categories. Ikeshut 23:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I would support a split to Squatting (pastoral) leaving a reference to that main article in this article. I suspect that otherwise this article covers urban and other squatting.--Golden Wattle talk 23:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
sorry but i really don't understand what you mean with this pastoral squatting? indeed the use of the word in australia sounds very confusing, anyway the concept of squatting deals with land owners that have more space than they can occupy themselves; so i'm not surprised is just used for its counterpart, it happens in languages. jaromil 01:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I've created the new article Squatting (pastoral), leaving a link in the "squatting" article & added a link to the squat disambiguation page. Ikeshut 05:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Squatting in LDCs

I think this article completely misses the larger portion of squatters in the world: squatters in lesser-developed countries (LDCs). As Robert Neuwirth writes in Shadow Cities, there are 1 billion squatters in the world, and the number is not projected to fall anytime soon. Most of these people are not squatting to make a statement, because they're anarchists, or any other typical university student-type idea. They're doing it because they lack the option to live legally. The introduction to the article does mention the favelas of Brazil, but it could go much further in that direction. It especially should discuss squatters' rights in the developing areas of the world.

Um, maybe I'll get to that when I have time. This is wikipedia, after all.


its been mentioned in the papers that in due to the instability in Iraqi many people have begun squatting there. it mentioned some of this was actions of political bullies, others from having no other choice.

mira.

[edit] St. Agnes Place

...is defunct, or so says the article elsewhere on wikipedia. I know nothing about this, but... Something Should Be Done. 14:38, —preceding unsigned comment by 24.91.23.134 (talk • contribs) 5 December 2005 (UTC+11 hours )

yes the place got shut down last summer it was in ever major UK newspaper lat summer, me and my mates were laughing at the tabloid headlines, infact a image of one of the newspaper pages would make a great example of common views towards squaters.

mira.

[edit] Socially interesting?

I read "squats are often socially interesting places". What do you mean with "socially interesting"? I live in a town that is full of squats, and sincerely I could objects on this point: there are some interesting places, and some other (the majority, according to me) that are far from being interesting. Guys, gimme some clue! --Angelo 23:02, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree a POV unverified statement. Hence I will remove. The statement may apply to some of the very famous suats, but the they have their own mentions anyway.--A Y Arktos 04:08, 17 December 2005 (UTC)


My own POV/first-hand experience is that they are interesting because:

The occupants know that the property is not theirs, so the usual "My pink side of the drainpipe" does not apply; meaning squabbles about property ownership. It´s an interesting study on the idea of "All for one, and one for all" theory.

There are lots of reasons why they are not good: because of easy access to drugs/a place where dealers can make a living. Their neighbours are also put under pressure because of the their frequent complaints about parties, and general noise. And why do a lot of people that live in squats have ´raggedy´ mongrel dogs?

andreasegde 16:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

'Socially interesting places' is pretty vague and POV without references or justification, but I would interpret the statement as alluding to the idea that living rent free is an attractive option for artists and musicians who therefore have time to spend on their vocation rather than being trapped in the cycle of working all day to pay the bills for living (rent, electricity etc). Squats therefore tend to have more 'going on' than normal rented apartments both in terms of the range activities being organised from them and more superficially, in terms of the way they appear (painted bright or with lots of agitprop stuck to the walls). Squats can often (in my experience) be interesting both because of the different types of people living there and becuase of the principles they are run on - many radical social centres are found in squats. A squat can be said to be a concrete example of resistance to a capitalistic system which prizes property over people. I could go on, but you probably get my drift. Mujinga 15:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion of section on South Africa

The section on squatting in South Africa could mention the "Red Ants", the procedure for evicting squatters and the legal status of squatter camps. Park3r 13:49, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of fotos

I reverted to a previous edit to remove the two photographs added today by User:Rafti_Institute. I did this because they are not acceptable under the guidelines of:

To explain my decision, i will take each photo in turn:

Image: Squat_home.jpg came with the text: Very often squatters block off windows to hide the fact that the building is occupied, they are also likely to not take their own garbage out, which tends to encourage insect and rodent infestations.

  • no original research - altho the text for the photo could be said to refer to a point made in the article about squatters hiding out in so-called "back window squats" in the USA, it proceeds to propose its own theory about litter and vermin
  • NPOV - very often, likely and tends are not neutral point of view
  • verifiable - there is no mention of where the squat is/was, or even if it really was a squat

Image: Squat_bed.jpgcame with the text: This is a squatter’s bedroom. Many squatters have drug or alcohol problems and also may be suffering from mental illness, which in part explains living conditions like this

  • no original research - again the photo proposes its own theory, rather than illustrating a point made in the article
  • NPOV - the whole text is not NPOV!
  • verifiable - where is the bedroom? proof of alcohol/drug problems? how do we know this is even a photo of a squat? saying it is "in america" is not enough

Moving forward, i can see that these images could be of use in this article, if illustrating a point made in it, if verified and if both the theory presented in the article and the labelling of the photo are NPOV. There are indeed squatters who leave a mess and have problems, just as there are renters and owners who leave a mess in their house and have mental health issues or drug problems. The article would certainly benefit from a well-researched addition on this theme. Mujinga 18:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


  • Good job there! Boabbriggs 09:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Squatting in caves and abandoned mines?

Has anyone heard of people doing this? It was apparantly fairly common in areas of the Appalatchians during the Civil War and Great Depression, and rumour has it that small communities are living in some of the old mines to this very day. I could imagine people staying in them for short periods of time, but staying down there for very long seems to me like a good way to get yourself killed. 170.215.105.201 06:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

There are people squatting in the caves of the Alhambra in Spain and I have seen homeless people sleeping in caves in the parks in and around Prague, in the Czech Republic. The award-winning film Dark Days is a documentary about people living beside the metro tunnels in New York, in the USA. I imagine there are many other places worldwide where people squat unused underground structures either natural or man-made. It wouldn't necessarily be a dangerous thing to do. Mujinga 14:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I imagine subways and and caves are much more sturdy than abandoned mines (some of which are over a hundred years old). I also imagine that odds of running into wild dogs, coyotes, or rattlesnakes is also lower in the urban areas of New York or Europe.

74.36.192.6 02:33, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] removed links

im removing external links from the page as there are too many, but i thought i would leave them here in case they are still interesting for someone:

- its already on the social centre page

Mujinga 03:37, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


i trimmed the notable squats list ... but i also archived the old version here Mujinga 03:01, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] developing this page

i would like to add more information to this page, particularly about squatting in poorer countries. i would also like to break up the list of notable squats becuase the redlinks are quite ugly. if anyone wants to help fill in the gaps in my knowledge, you are welcome! Mujinga 00:08, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

i think it is good to break the sections up by continent, with a paragraph describing the local situation and then a subsection to discuss countries individually, if necessary. the notable squats could then be incorporated by country. i will be adding more stuff over the next few days, it will take a while because i want to make it all well-referenced.Mujinga 16:49, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Squatts, shanty towns & South America

I removed the section on shanty towns in South America (favelas, villas miseria, etc.) These are not squatt: they are not illegal occupation of land or building, but informal buildings (i.e. shanty towns). This is not the same thing. They are squatts in South America (see fabricas recuperadas in Argentina), but shanty towns are another thing alltogether. Tazmaniacs

Not so. As the introduction states - "Squatting is the act of occupying an abandoned or unoccupied space or building that the squatter does not own, rent or otherwise have permission to use". Under this criteria, shanty towns are clearly squatted terrains. I havce reverted your edit. If you do not agree, please let's discuss it here. Cheers! Mujinga 19:14, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
But one may perfectly own his house in a shanty town. This is probably a limit case, and I agree that my distinction may be a bit too strict. However, I am used to a definition of shanty town rather in the sense that it is a space deprived of public services. For instance, this article cited the favela da Rocinha, one of the largest, and best known, favela of Rio. It is perfectly legal! And its inhabitants owned their houses, as far as I know. Morros, where the favelas are located, were occupied in the beginning of the century (at least), and where not, at that time, formally owned. But then, what was "formally owned" then? Rules weren't so strict (although this certainly does not mean they're weren't any). In any cases, in Brasil as in lots of other Latin American countries, many of these shanty towns have been legalized in all points. The only thing which continues to make them such sites is their poor, if not inexistent, access to public services (electricity, water, school, police, etc.). This should at least be said in the article, if this part is to remain, don't you think? Tazmaniacs

[edit] Squatting in the Philippines

You should add it. Squatters are prolific and are unregulated. And they multiply exponentially. -122.52.22.204 14:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide a source? Murderbike 19:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Okupas?

There is no K in the Spanish language so how can the word 'okupas' possibly be the Spanish word used for squatters? True, ocupar is the verb 'to occupy' but I think some more research or at least a citation is needed to verify this word which I've certainly never come across148.197.5.20 15:57, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

No problem. The K is used as a deliberate act of protest, as per this from Cambridge University Press

The word <OKUPACIóN> (<Ocupación> in standard Spanish orthography) here means that the building has been subject to ‘occupation’, that is squatted. Again, a <k> functions as a symbol of ‘otherness’, of resistance to convention; but in this case, arguably, not just to orthographic conventions, but to social conventions more generally. According to Castilla (1997), a journalist writing in the newspaper El País, ‘in the last decade [<k>] has turned itself into the favourite letter of okupas [‘occupations’], war resisters, bakalaeros [adherents of a type of techno music..]

The Okupas article I've been meaning to write (...) is the proper place for this kind of citation, though; not sure it's needed here. Hope this clears up the confusion, anyway. --mikaultalk 19:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New York suatting group in South Bronx

A squatting group (or atleast a group that began as one) was Banana Kelly, based in the South Bronx. See this page for info

Include in the article. Thanks.

KVDP (talk) 07:49, 28 March 2008 (UTC)