Talk:Squamata

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[edit] Citations

It's great to have a new section on the evolution of squamates. However, the section would be greatly improved by citing sources (see citing sources and footnotes and by some copy editing. I don't feel competent to edit the section now, because I don't know the facts. If someone else could improve the presentation of information and provide sources, I could do some copy editing. - Enuja (talk) 21:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I found a good squamate evolution paper, so I re-wrote the section. Thanks for starting the section and adding the American Museum of Natural History website, User:4444hhhh. However, I didn't see many of the facts in the section in the source, and I'm not convinced that a museum-display guide (the website is obviously oriented to the actual museum displays, which are, of course, not available online) is the best kind of source to use for this article. I left the source in, but I removed a lot of information that wasn't in either source, that I saw, anyway. This section could definitely do with being expanded, and there is more information available in the Kumazawa source and sources it references.
However, I'd like to talk a bit about organization. The pre-existing article has some of this information at the bottom of the classification section, and I think having a nice overview of current and past classification might be a good thing to come before the description of squamate evolution, which has to use terms that refer to squamate groups. I didn't move it because I'm not sure and would like some other opinions on organization. - Enuja (talk) 18:42, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Merging with Toxicofera

I think this should merge with the main Toxicofera page.--4444hhhh (talk) 05:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Why? The Toxicofera page says that it only encompasses 60% of squamates. I can see the argument not to make a new page if there wasn't already one, but I don't see what's wrong with having separate articles. Both are currently short, but not really stubs. - Enuja (talk) 06:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
What I was trying to say is bring Toxicofera to the classifacation like this:

Classification

Classically, the order is divided into three suborders:

  • Lacertilia, the lizards;
  • Serpentes, the snakes;
  • Amphisbaenia, the worm lizards.

Of these, the lizards form a paraphyletic group. In newer classifications the name Sauria is used for reptiles and birds in general, and the Squamata are divided differently:

  • Suborder Iguania (the iguanas and chameleons)
  • Suborder Scleroglossa
    • Infraorder Gekkota (the geckos)
    • Infraorder Anguimorpha (the monitors, goannas, Komodo dragon, Gila monster, and slow-worms)
    • Infraorder Scincomorpha (skinks, whiptail lizards and common European lizards)
    • Infraorder Serpentes (the snakes)
    • Infraorder Amphisbaenia

The exact relationships within these two suborders are not entirely certain yet, though recent research strongly suggests that several families form a venom clade which encompasses a majority (nearly 60%) of Squamate species. The group is call Toxicofera. Toxicofera combines the following groups from traditional classification:

  • suborder Serpentes (snakes)
  • suborder Iguania (anoles, chameleons, iguanas, etc.)
  • infraorder Anguimorpha, consisting of:
  • family Varanidae (monitor lizards, including the Komodo dragon)
  • family Anguidae (alligator lizards, glass lizards, etc.)
  • family Helodermatidae (Gila monster and Mexican beaded lizard)

--4444hhhh (talk) 15:21, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I think we should expand the sentence that links to toxicofera, and come up with some way to make a phylogeny, including toxicofera, but I I think we should not merge the pages. The lists of traditional classification groups that make up new groups make sense in the absence of a phylogeny, but instead of making one big article with lots of lists of traditional classification groups, we should have a hypothesized phylogeny or two of Squamata on this page, and discuss toxicofera in more detail on its page. - Enuja (talk) 17:24, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good enough. I take the merge caps down.--4444hhhh (talk) 03:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reperduction

We need squamate reperduction people. Look for sources, and get some info!--4444hhhh (talk) 03:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully, that would be "Reproduction" that you'd like a new section on. However, I think it would benefit the article more to think about the ideal organization and for us all to read some of the primary literature. One of the reasons I haven't yet tried to make a phylogeny is that the current squamate phylogenies, including the origin of snakes, the evolution of venom, the placement of Iguanids, and many other things, are still hypotheses undergoing testing. It's not quick and easy to find the facts and simply write them in the article. Instead, we need to read a variety of papers, look at the publication date and the way the literature has responded to each hypothesis, and figure out which hypotheses are well supported enough to go in the article, and with how much certainty they should be stated.
Personally, I think it makes a lot of sense to put a lot of the general squamate biology here at this article, but I'm not sure how it should be organized. A good solid lead should start the article, but then what? Although it certainly doesn't need the jargon, I think basic aim of a large group article like this should be to give details about the synapomorphies (shared derived characters) of the group. As an example Bird is a featured article of a group of organisms (that has more synapomorphies than squamates, of course, so there is more to talk about). Snake is a B-class article, but it's certainly got a lot more information than this article does. One suggested organization:
Evolution and Taxonomy
Origin (description of outgroups, basic synapomorphies)
Classification
Evolutionary relationships (including discussions of possible venom clade, ect)
Locomotion (include breathing & running stuff, specialized locomotion)
Physiology
Reproduction
Temperature biology
Ecology
I'm not saying we need to decide on a final organization now and stick with it, but I think it would be easier to write sections, and the work on the prose would be more long-lasting, if we try to write the section thinking about where it fits in a more fleshed out article.
By the way, I'm also willing to to put together a collage that has images of different squamates for the taxobox (as in Animal), so suggestions both of groups that should make it in and specific pictures to use, as well as opinions on whether a collage is a good idea, are very welcome. I was thinking that about four images should be good.
On making a phylogeny; I've downloaded Inkscape, so I should be able to make an SVG image with some fiddling, and I've found Template:Clade. I think that it probably makes sense to use the template first, and then make a fancy looking image later when the field is more resolved or I understand the literature more completely. - Enuja (talk) 18:13, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good, Enuja...I like the collage idea for the infobox, I had to ditch that dinosaur. As for taxonomy, etc...I was told that the Reptiles and Amphibian Project uses ITIS as the standard. I admit, ITIS is not always as up to date as I'd like it, but if it is the standard on wikipedia, we should use it as the source and not provocative theories that mislead the public into thinking all reptiles are venomous. I'm working on rewrites to snake and lizard; snake is coming along but needs major work on the prose...I spent a few weeks gathering and formatting sources, lizard will be the same and information from both of those articles could be incorporated here. Taking a section at a time was how I started to improve the snake article.--Mike Searson (talk) 18:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I like the organization, Enuja. He's mine suggestion of the organization:
Classification
History of Classification
Squamate Families
Evolution
Biology
Diets
Behavior
Locomotion
Reproduction
Temperature biology
Venom
Ecology
Humans and Squamates
Pets
Bites
Conservation

Oh, and one more thing, we should make this page longer, not short (like the first version of the article) I mean, the other reptile orders are longer but not this one. --4444hhhh (talk) 20:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I got great idea Enuja! What if we combine mine idea with your organization--4444hhhh (talk) 21:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Mike Searson that we should write this article one section at a time. I, personally, like to have an idea of the organization in my head before I write a section, but I don't think that empty sections benefit the article while it is growing. 4444hhhh, I think your organization from Biology on down makes sense, but let's build it slowly, with good, cited prose at all times. - Enuja (talk) 23:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Hold your horses, this article does not need a pet section (at least yet) alot of the latest additions are out of place, poorly cited, and badly written; frankly they are best left to individual articles on species, genus, etc. I say edit "Top-Down"...Taxo, distribution, biology, ecology, etc.--Mike Searson (talk) 23:36, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revision of Diets

Okay guys, I know what you said about me putting stuff with mis-grammar. So I'll do what Enuja suggested on my talk page. So, here's my revision version of diets:

Squamates have various diets. Snakes are strict carnivores, eating small animals including lizards, other snakes, small mammals, birds, eggs, fish, snails or insects. Lizards on the other hand, eat various of diets, eating berries, fruit, vegetables, insects, fish, snail, small mammals, small birds, eggs, other lizards, snakes, and large prey, such as cattle and deer. The worm-lizards mainly eat worms and insects.

So, what do you think guys? Any suggestions? --4444hhhh (talk) 16:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, I think this article is too broad to put these kind of details in it and they are better for articles further down the line. Think about it, Burmese pythons do not eat snails...Iguanas do not eat cattle...garter snakes do not eat berries, etc. This article should just encompass the families that make up the order and that which is common to all of them biologicaly. The details on diet, reproduction, etc belongs in articles on the genus, species or subspecies in question. I do admire your willingness and effort, though.--Mike Searson (talk) 16:54, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
True, true. So, what else can do for a big favor for the article then?--4444hhhh (talk) 19:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Read the recent literature and make one phylogeny, or a variety of hypothesized phylogenies from different studies, depending on what you find the literature. Make the phylogeny using Template:Clade. - Enuja (talk) 00:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes sir!--4444hhhh (talk) 17:32, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Please explicitly reference sources when making the phylogeny, and please work on the phylogeny in a sandbox. I suggest creating a sub-page of your own user space as a place to work on things before you put them live. I'm going to remove the current phylogenies from the article. It's superb that you are making the phylogenies, and I am quote confident that you will make one that is good enough to into the article, but please don't work on creating the phylogenies in the main space. Also, phylogenies should go in the evolution section, not in the classification section. - Enuja (talk) 19:53, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
The resources I undersyand, but the phylogeny was too difficult and hard!--4444hhhh (talk) 22:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)