User talk:Sputnikcccp/Hebrew Alphabet

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Although the dual pronunciation of gimmel is less common than that of bet, I think that their two forms should be treated more similarly. Bet & vet shouldn't be treated as two letters, rather two orthographic variants corresponding to a phonological variation.

Contents

[edit] Additional sections

  • Letter variants - Maybe we need a section with letter variants, eg final letters or acceptance of a dagesh.
  • Transcription - normal English transcription / transliteration practice

--jnothman talk 01:04, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that actually printing the letter with the dagesh is needed. About the very few letters that don't accept it should be noted (א, ח, ע, ר). There's also ה, which doesn't accept dagesh, but at the end of the word sometimes accepts "mapik", which looks just like dagesh - a dot inside and has a little different function.--Amir E. Aharoni 09:04, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Template infobox in the corner

It may be nice to have a little infobox in the corner with:

  • Character glyph
  • Name
  • Standard Modern Hebrew pronunciation
  • Phonecian ancestor
  • Greek/Latin/English equivalent
  • Ordinal number
  • Gematria number

--jnothman talk 01:04, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Script

Great ideas! I've put most into practise (except the infobox, which would be a good job for a talented mensch to help out a yid with no computer skills whatsoever) and I think the variations section should also include a picture of how the letter is written in Torah script (calligraphy), Rashi script, and modern cursive. I'm working on uploading all those images, but (and here's another good job for any mentschen looking for something to do) if someone else wants to help me by uploading some and putting them on this page so's I can see them, that would be fine. Sputnikcccp 00:54, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Pictures of different scripts are available on the Hebrew Wikipedia: he:א, he:ב, etc. I've started building the template at Template:Hebrew alphabet. Not sure how I'll nicely handle word-final forms. --jnothman talk 12:42, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Basic infoboxes are added to the letter pages now. I hope you like. (I made lots of mistakes on the way and don't know what I'd do without Opera (web browser) which made it so much easier to manage...) I think you'll find there's lots of information on pronunciations in Hebrew alphabet. --jnothman talk 14:37, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
I would recommend Firefox over Opera, but that's just personal preference. Daykart 08:02, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Chupchik

We should also identify how the letter sounds in modern hebrew with a chupchik, ie:

  • 'ג = /dʒ/ - Makes a sound like a J, because there is no letter for that sound in the hebrew alphabet since it is a foreign sound. Example: Used in the word 'giraffe'
  • 'ד = /ð/ (I think!)
  • 'ז = /ʒ/
  • 'ט = /θ/
  • 'צ = /tʃ/

are there others? --jnothman talk 13:34, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

    • The chupchik is called "geresh", which means 'bridge' in hebrew.
    • The /θ/ sound is ת', not ט'.
    • The /ð/ with ד' is very rarely used.--Amir E. Aharoni 09:01, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Note that the 'chupchik' is not at all part of the Ancient Hebrew aleph-bet; it is a modern invention. This should be noted in the article.

--Piano man 10:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vav variants

There are a number of mistakes here and I'm a little confused and a little too busy, so I haven't edited them directly.

  1. The vowel-variants actually have names: shuruk and holom male (see Niqqud)
  2. I think the given pronunciations are backwards (ie the one with the dot on top is Oh!)
  3. There is actually a fair bit of variation in pronunciation of these vowel forms (eg. some Ashkenazi communities)
  4. In Modern Israeli Hebrew, the vowel that does sound like oo is not a close back rounded vowel (IPA /u/, oo in boot), but rather /ʊ/, oo as in book. These are two different sounds, but some British Hebrew speakers do use something closer to the former.
  5. "Vav with a dagesh" is incorrect: dagesh means emphasis, and that is not the purpose of this dot, where a dagesh means doubling or lengthening
  6. And yet, vav does take a dagesh, without forming a vowel, for instance the word "he commanded" = צִוָּה
  7. Similarly, a vav can, in some situations, have a dot above it and still be pronounced as a /v/, eg "commandments" = מִצְוֹת
  8. It may be important to note that the variations here, particularly for vowels, are only in the Hebrew alphabet and not other semitic languages with a waw.
  9. When Vav is used to indicate a long vowel, it is called a Mater lectionis.

That's all I have for now... --jnothman talk 09:59, 19 October 2005 (UTC) PS: We should be consistent in capitalising letter names.

Thanx for the corrections! I was very tired, and the problem was i was now writing it all on my own, as opposed to rewriting the information from the page, as i did with Bet. I do know the difference 'tween shuruk and holam male; i had just put the pronunciation under the wrong heading. And you're right, it isn't a dagesh, but it's not a mapiq either, so i'm not sure what to call it other than 'dot'. Ok, now i get what you mean in 3 but am not sure what you mean exactly to put it. The same with 6 and 7; I don't know how I could explain thiose withoout getting into grammer, which is not what i want to do. And as for 8, does that mean in Arabic, say, vav is just vav, not v, oo, and oh? And that mater lectiones bit... im not sure what that is either... I got to go, but thanx for the correction. Sputnikcccp 11:57, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
With regards to 3, this is an encyclopedia and not a textbook, so phonology is relevant. Get more detail than "there are variations" if preferable. With 6 & 7, don't get into grammar, just don't distinguish these symbols by saying "vav with a dot here means this" rather that "vav can be used as a mater lectionis for an 'o' vowel, in which case it is known as a holom male, and in pointed text is marked with a dot above and to the left". A mater lectionis, well, read the article. In Hebrew we call it an אם קריאה, same term really: it means that among an alphabet of consonants, this usually-consonantal letter can be used to signify a long vowel. With regards to 8, yes Arabic does have something like oo and oh variants of the same 'w' letter, but they are not the same oo and oh sounds; but in earlier semitic alphabets I'm sure maters weren't used, so there would have been a stage when vav meant only vav the consonant, and thus there would be languages and alphabets for which this is the case. --jnothman talk 12:22, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Some notes:

1. In modern Hebrew pronunciation it's not called holom, but holam.

2. The one with the dot on top is definitely Oh!, although a lot of Israelis confuse them in their writing!

4. I'd say that it's the closest to the u in put.

5. Vav can accept a dagesh, when it's a consonant. Shuruk looks just the same.

7. That is not a dot above, it is a holam - in a properly printed book it would be shifted to the left of the vav.--Amir E. Aharoni 09:12, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. In such cases, the cholam dot is not actually part of the letter; it is a vowel accompanying the letter, just the same as if the vav were an aleph or shin, for example. The vav is *not* a cholam male; it is a vav with a cholam chaser. --Piano man 10:07, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Phoenician pronunciation

I think the Phoenician pronunciation sections should be left out. They don't say much for someone who knows what Phoenician is, and also sometimes say inaccurate/incorrect things such as that the letter is pronounced the same as in Hebrew. They're better removed and an expert may choose to write on the subject at a later point. jnothman talk 23:57, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

As 'semi-expert' (ie, student) I can agree - there's no 'pronounciation' of phoenician, and not only because "we don't know", also as we do know, that what we call 'phoenician', is actually quite huge, we're talking about a language spoken for many centuries, with many different dialects and 'hints' for different pronounciation over different periods/areas, such as losing the sound of 'ayin' in some, while in others probably not, etc. Hence there's no point to talk about 'a' phoenician pronounciation. This kind of infomation better belongs to a (detailed) article about phoenician.

[edit] Pharyngeal pronunciation

  • I've added it here so the discussion can be seen.
    • You seem to be better at this pronunciation thing than me; I was wondering if you could help me with the pronunciation sections, since you will probably correct it anyway. I'm working on Heth now, and I'm not sure about pronunciation. What is the difference between Heth and Kaph in terms of IPA or whatever? How else is Heth pronounced? I've been looking through the IPA articles but they're very hard to understand if you're not a phonologist. Thanks a lot!! Sputnikcccp 14:57, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Btw, sputnik, please reply here on the talk page. I have the page watched so I don't need it to appear on my talk page for me to notice it. Further, if it does appear on my talk page as a new message that is more intrusive. Finally, this can be kept as a record of discussion, rather than being distributed among numerous pages.

Regarding the pronunciation of heth, and of 'ayin, if you go to Israel and listen carefully (or listen to appropriate music), you will here a difference between these letters and khaf and alef. Ashkenazim generally do not make this distinction (although some Ashkenazi Jerusalemites, for instance, may). heth and 'ayin are pronounced gutturally.

A page that has sound files with these distinctions is here. That same web site has pronunciations of all major consonants and vowels if you're unsure of other IPA symbols.

Notably, that web site indicates that khaf is usually a uvular frictave, while we have been listing it as velar. Velar is where we pronounce g and k. Some do pronounce khaf and het in velar position, but that is closer to a sound in the Russian language, while Hebrew's is further back.

I am not sure, and it needs to be checked up, but I think the official pronunciation of heth (and ayin), according to the Academy of Hebrew Language is the Mizrahi or pharyngeal one, although the Ashkenazi trait of not distinguishing heth and khaf is becoming almost universal in western countries other than Israel, and is increasingly common in Israel, too.

jnothman talk 03:08, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Variations on/of/in written form

Ironically, there are at least three variations in the title "variations on/in/of written form"... Please choose one, sputnik. jnothman talk 02:02, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Value of existing tables

First I'd like to say what you've done here looks very good. However I think some of the existing tables in the current article, particularly the Main table section, are very useful. It's nice to be able to see a lot of information in one place. Also the Unicode and HTML table are handy. Perhaps you should consider incorporating them into what you've done here. Another option would be to consider giving those tables articles of their own and referencing them from this page. Keep up the good work. < Puck 06:44, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

This is intended to be a series of articles, rather than a particular article. I agree, though, that individual portions from the Hebrew alphabet have been left out here when they should be included. jnothman talk 13:19, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Ah, now I see. As individual entries it makes sense. I don't know much about templates, but this would seem a place where they could be used. Once these become separate articles the currently wonderful consistency could start to drift as they are edited separately. A template might help guard against that. At any rate, this is looking great. Nice work. <Puck 14:24, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Doh! Never mind about the template thing, I just looked at the page itself. I feel pretty silly right now. <Puck 14:25, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] dalet

the pictographic origin of dalet is a 'door', just like the modern hebrew word, Delet(h). i believe this is a more accurate account of its origins than a more tenuous link to 'fish' (dag). Dgl 10:43, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

And most academia would agree with that. Consider its shape in numerous languages, and the shape of a door-frame. jnothman talk 13:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
The Encyclopedia Judaica says that Dalet comes from a pictograph of a fish. I'm going to do some more research to see which is more probable. Sputnikcccp 23:33, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Haven't yet had the opportunity to go through the entire page

One comment though. In gematria, an Aleph represents one thousand, Beth represents two thousand, etc. This may or may not have to do with the similarity between Aleph and Eleph, the Hebrew word for one thousand. I have seen this system used outside of numbering years as well. Daykart 19:45, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Aleph usually represents 1 in gematria, not 1000. There can be exceptions (in gematria there are lots of competing rules). There is some confusion here with writing years. The draft says "when used in Hebrew dates, it means 1000 (i.e. אתשנד in numbers would be the date 1754)." That is true, but also אתשנא means 1751 since alef means 1000 in the thousands position and 1 in the units position. Some clarification is needed. Also, I would call these "years", not "dates". In dates, like "Adar 1", alef always means 1. --Zero 07:41, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Also with bet, gimmel, etc. --Zero 10:16, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bet

There is also a meaning of "alternative", sometimes close to "illegal". Historical examples: mossad le'aliyah bet = Institute for illegal immigration; haganah bet = Etzel. --Zero 10:22, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

I've always thought of Bet in that context as meaning "The other" or something to that effect. Daykart 23:34, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
By "alternative" I mean such as the English phrase "alternative press", which means more than just the other press but rather press whose values are different from the mainstream. My guess as to the meaning is only my impression from a few examples; it would be worth looking for additional examples to get a better idea. --Zero 00:20, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh yes, I understand. Isn't there an anarchist collective (I think in Tel Aviv or in Haifa) called "Memshalah Bet"? Daykart 16:56, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Qoph

Since I am a native hebrew speaker, I know that 'Qoph' should sound like 'koof'. You might want to consider changing it.

P.S: I am writing this using the web browser on my PSP!

WordWhiz 02:15, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I know it's Quph, but the page was originally Qoph and I can't change it. Sputnikcccp 02:19, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


Qoph is the correct form. I supose that the same proccess that turned Arabic Ra's to Hebrew Rosh, Arabic Ka's to hebrew Kos turned Arabic Qa'ph to Hebrew Qoph. conio.h • talk 16:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Holam Male

The relationship between Holam Male and Holam Haser (orthographically) is the same as between Hiriq Male and Hiriq Haser: Hiriq Haser is a dot under a letter, and Hiriq Male is Hiriq Hase and Yod afterwards. In a same manner Holam Hase is a dot on the upper-left corner of the letter, and Holam Male is the same thing with a Waw afterwards.

The dot in Holam Male should be between the letters, ant not above the Waw. Typeset problem caused it to be put there in many cases, but if you check good prints of the Bible in Hebrew (the kind that puts Hataf Gnuva in the right place) you'll see that Holam (Male or Hasser) is never above the Waw.

For instance: חוֹלם is wrong; חֹולם is right. It just looks very bad with most (if not all) fonts. conio.h • talk 16:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC)