Talk:Split infinitive

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[edit] Spoken version

Timwi has just added the "spoken version" tag which was removed last year. The reason it was removed was that the article has been completely rewritten, and the old text found in the spoken version is not to be recommended. Obviously it would be best to re-record this, but that is a big job for someone, and should probably wait until the article gets GA status, i.e. until we are sure we are not about to make more substantial changes. Meanwhile, is it best to leave this tag, or leave it with a warning of some sort, or just delete it again? --Doric Loon 14:29, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Moriarty

About the sentence: "In any case, Moriarty is clearly in error when she dates the prohibition to a time when Latin was regarded as the only scholarly language - this was not the case in 1834." What wasn't the case -- that Latin was regarded as the only scholarly language, or that the prohibition against splitting infinitives was in effect? Moreover, if this author mangles basic facts about the history of split infinitives is this something important enough to be quoting and dissecting within the article? Just my two bits. Daniel Freeman 13:15, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Hard to say what she was thinking. Either she thought the controversy was centuries older than it actually is (I suspect that is the case) or she thought Latin was the sole scholarly language much longer than it was. English became regarded as a serious scholarly language in the 16th or 17th century, but was beginning to be used for serious writing quite a bit earlier than that. The split infinitive controversy only began in the 19th century, so she is clearly wrong to see it in that context. I agree that she is hardly a significant writer, and possibly the quote should be replaced with another one. --Doric Loon 15:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
As I recall, the purpose of the quotation is to show specifically what real people believed the argument from Latin was, as some editors here doubted anyone could think anything so absurd. I would certainly rather see a quotation from someone more famous and more knowledgeable about the split infinitive. And I wouldn't miss the "clearly" in error sentence if people believe it's beating a dead horse. —JerryFriedman 04:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lowth

The article now says that Lowth did NOT proscribe against the split infinitive. Every reference I have ever seen says that he did, and he is cited in Garner's latest usage manual. Where is the evidence he did NOT create this proscription? Manning 20:17, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I read Lowth's book and didn't find anything about split infinitives. If that's not good enough, see [1]. It's cited in the article, but not at "first known prohibition", which maybe it should be. —JerryFriedman 20:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but that's the way myths grow, isn't it? A thing is said often enough and you will never root it out. But it is up to you, Manning Bartlett, to find a citation in Lowth, not for us to prove there is none. --Doric Loon 10:24, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, at least one of the usage books we cite says the prohibitions appeared in the mid 19th century. The AHDEU? We should probably cite that too at the beginning of "History of the controversy", as Manning probably won't be the only person with this question.
Manning, if you've want, you can add the cite from Garner to footnote 13 as more evidence that reputable people believe in the myth. —JerryFriedman 14:28, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the Lowth statement is better supported now. Thanks for bringing this up, Manning. —JerryFriedman 04:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Borrowing from French

It is not clear that this section is correct, at least as regards French. The proper French translation of "I decide to not do something" does not include the particle "de." Rather, contrary to the claim that "the preposition is not considered a part of the infinitive form," the preposition is in fact part of the lexical infinitive, but not as a separate word. That is, the translation of "faire" is not "do" but "to do," and the proper French translation is "Je décide ne pas faire quelque chose." This is true of other Romance languages as well; the reason they do not refer to split infinitives is that they are impossible because the infinitive does not have a separate particle. --uvaphdman 19:53, 2 December 2007 (UTC)uvaphdman

The French for "I decide not to do" really is "Je décide de ne pas faire". See this French-English dictionary or try Google for a very rough approximation of usage:
"je décide de ne pas": 20,900
"je décide ne pas": 196
"Faire" is indeed often translated "to do", but also often as just "do". In fact it can be both—"je dois le faire", I should do it, I ought to do it. One could debate, though, whether the "de" above is really equivalent to the English "to". —JerryFriedman (Talk) 20:23, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Jerry's right. Please note that the article doesn't claim that the de in this French sentence is syntactically identical to the to in the English equivalent - just that there is a superficial similarity which might have been enough to trigger a linguistic borrowing. --Doric Loon 00:24, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] A question

Would the following be regarded as a split infinive? And if not, then what?

"Are you going to talk?"
"Yes, I'm going to"

Since the second person has omitted "talk" from the end of his answer, which would otherwise leave "to talk" there.


No, this is not a split infinitive. It is just a shortened form of a construction which I suspect is uniquely English. A similar situation with finite verbs is:
Does he talk much?
Yes, he does. (="does talk much")
Most languages have situations where a word which strictly is necessary for a construction to be complete may be dropped because it is obvious what is meant, and these echo situations, where the first speaker already used the word which the second speaker can then assume, are typical examples. But I can't think that any other language leaves the infinitive marker in stressed position while dropping the infinitive itself. --Doric Loon (talk) 07:01, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

BTW, the term for this is "ellipsis". This does bring into question the assertion that "to talk" forms a linguistic unit. "Yes, I am" would also be considerd a perfectly fine answer to the question, but "Yes, I am going" would not. So, apparently, the word "to" is attached to "going", not "talk". In other words, English uses the phrase "going to" to indicate future tense. Just "going", by itself, would be present progressive. The "to" modifies "going", not "talk". So "I am going to really enjoy this" would not be an example of a split infinitive (can you imagine someone saying "I am going really to enjoy this"?)Heqwm (talk) 06:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Can you find a source for that? It is very interesting, and if any linguist has taken that view in a citable work I would say we should include it in the section on origins of the construction - it shows that the role of "to" has changed over time. But it may also be that the future tense is a special case. Would it also work that way with "decided to"? I am more sceptical there. --Doric Loon (talk) 07:03, 26 April 2008 (UTC)