Talk:Speed metal

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Speed metal article.
Article policies
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

Contents

[edit] Removing list of speed metal songs by non-speed metal bands

This section is almost completely pointless. Lots of bands play the occassional fast song but this doesn't make them representive of speed metal. If you take a look at this section now you'll see that its gotten far too long for this article. I'm also positive that less than 50% of the songs in that list are actually speed metal. Speed metal doesn't just mean fast metal (or rock in the case of some bands in this list). If it did then a lot of death and black metal bands would make this list too including numerous power metal. Speed metal consists mainly on fast metal bands who do not belong, or were around before other genres of metal. Bands such as venom can be considered speed metal because they wern't thrash yet clearly not traditional heavy metal. The first helloween album is clearly speed metal because it didn't "thrash" and it was far different from the power metal that was pioneered following that album. When bands such as Europe, Ratt, Rainbow, Muse (a big WTF?) make it to the list then a group of people are clearly muddled up in their definition of speed metal. Its funny because on one side there are people who fail to recognise the genre and on the other side there are people who stick any rock and metal band with a faster than normal song into one of the lists here.

I propose that we remove the speed metal songs by non-speed metal bands section either altogether or just off this article and into its own. I would like some feedback here before I go ahead of course. --PureHolocaust 18:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I definately wouldn't mind the removal of the list. The other genre articles don't have lists like that so why should speed metal have one. --Pasajero 02:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and removed the list - as most of it is saturated with personal opinion anyway. Wisdom89 01:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

It has been said by many that this article was highly incorrect and even a little POV. Examples? Well the biggest being the fact that it was stated as only a cross reference birthed from power/thrash metal, which is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT incorrect. I have edited it including the facts PLUS what was in there already about power/thrash crossovers, thus making it as NPOV as I could. Please type up comments and whatever here before making major changes/reverts. --Ryouga 20:09, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Try to put stuff under subheadings. Maybe a brief section on the history, a section on the explanation of the speed metal sound, speed metal as being played now etc. Have less about bands with single speed metal songs and more about bands who played straight up speed metal such as agent steel, exciter etc. Talk about the evolution of speed metal into thrash and power metal, explaining key bands to do this (i.e. helloween as they moved away from their early speed metal sound). I would add this all but at the moment i'm doing some work for college. Thanks a lot for rewriting this!
PLEASE KEEP ARGUMENTS ON THE VALIDITY OF THIS MUSIC GENRE OUT OF THIS SECTION, THANKS --PureHolocaust 20:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll get to what I can whenever I can. If anyone can help out do so. Requests can go here as well, but if you want it done fast, just DIY! Thanks. --Ryouga 20:39, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately this article cannot be rewritten until a poll is passed on whether Speed Metal should be a genre or a cross reference. Either way, I intend to edit the factual accuracy of the article itself once I have discussed it with the appropriate users. --Ryouga 05:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article needs some work, no a lot of work.

Can this article be sorted out? Speed metal IS a valid genre that existed before thrash metal and power metal. There are bands who play pretty much exclusively speed metal, at least as much speed metal as other bands play of their main genre. I don't have all that much time to update this article. If someone else that has extensive knowledge on this genre of metal can rewrite this whole article it would be much appreciated. If nothing is being done in a couple of weeks then i may have time at that point to rewrite it.

There are also far more bands playing speed metal than is mentioned either here or the speed metal musical group page. A lot of early thrash metal bands were playing speed metal early on too, anthrax is an example. I think a lot more can be said about speed metal than this article lets on. It dwells too much on the old metal/rock bands who wrote single, one of speed metal songs. It should discuss the genre more, talk about bands who are much more speed metal such as agent steel. Talk about the misconception that speed metal and thrash metal are the same/similar. Discuss what speed metal is and why it differs from other forms of metal, also discuss the similarities.

Thanks to anyone who can add more/change more to this article to make it better.

This isnt a genre of music, its a cross term. The bands that 'play pure speed metal' ironically, always play power or thrash. And articles tend to do that, however, we are cracking down on made up genres such as this one. Ley Shade 12:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

You're either foolish or uneducated in metal to think that speed metal isn't a valid genre of metal. First lets compare speed metal to other "genres" listed on the heavy metal page. Avant garde metal? These bands fit into other genres of metal so why is that being kept? Folk metal also tends to fit into other genres of metal too.

It's because those terms actually describe something that is unique, not something generic. Speed Metal means nothing.24.23.168.20 12:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

If you listen to a lot of metal, especially 80's metal, you can clearly hear the difference between speed metal and thrash metal. Power metal was pretty much non-existant at that time also. The first thrash metal band to release an full length is usually considered metallica. This means that early venom can't be classed as thrash metal, they definitely can't be classes as traditional heavy metal nor power metal. What are they? Are they a mix of power metal and thrash metal? No because them genres wern't even around then. They are straight up speed metal. Exciter was another band that played pretty pure speed metal. They released a full length in the same year as metallica. If they were thrash you would have definitely heard more about them than you do currently.

Whatever a lot of people say, speed metal IS a genre of metal that predates thrash and power metal. There are speed metal bands and albums that cannot be classified as power metal nor thrash metal. --PureHolocaust 15:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

First off, i work in the Metal Scene around the world, and have contact daily with many of the bands your on about. Second, i lead the WP:HMM by self appointment as secutary.
No, Speed Metal is NOT a genre. I suggest reading the musical genre article. It is a MINOR term used by SOME fans, to depict MINOR differences between one band and the other. Speed Metal is not a genre, and Wikipedia will not list deep inaccuracies on the basis of a minor set of people wanting to 'create' a genre for their favourite, or lest favourite, bands. Ley Shade 15:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

You haven't answered anything i've just said, you've just gone out of your way to attempt to prove how knowledgeable you are to me. Speed metal is known as a valid genre by most people who actually know there metal. This isn't some made up genre based on bands sounding slightly different to one another. Back in the 80's a lot of bands sounded way more similar than bands these days. As metal grew, new genres moved further away from the original sound of metal. This is why to people who are new to metal (not saying you are) and who have jumped into black metal, death metal and modern doom metal may not appreciate the difference between speed metal and thrash metal; however, most fans of heavy metal who were listening to metal through the 80's tend to KNOW that speed metal existed as it was far more noticable as a genre than as it is now.

I would also like to point out AGAIN that speed metal predates both thrash metal AND power metal. But i'm guessing you won't try to question this. --PureHolocaust 15:53, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

First off, all the bands claimed to be Speed Metal, are mostly Power Metal and Thrash Metal. Ive also seen Gothic Metal, Black Metal and Death Metal bands called Speed Metal.
Second, im not at all new to metal and i do know what im talking about, trying to act bigger than anyone here will simply get your POV ignored.
Third, it was, and always has been, a term used to describe bands that dont fit Power or Thrash metal perfectly, due to one minor difference. It is not a genre, and after studying genres for years, and providing you with an article that gives yew a nice summed up defination, it would be foolish to try to argue it is a genre.
Speed Metal is an old term, used to talk about bands from across genres. Nothing more, nothing less. Ley Shade 16:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, bands who ARE speed metal are not power metal or thrash metal. Bands who CLAIM to be speed metal may not be speed metal, i agree. This happens in every genre. Back in the 80's bands claimed to be genres that they are not considered now. Didn't venom think they were power metal?

I am not giving my point of view. There is clearly a difference between speed metal and power metal and thrash metal, maybe you just do not see that. Why am i acting bigger than you? I started this talk topic not to 'act bigger than Ley Shade' but to help improve a topic about a valid genre of heavy metal music. I can see that you are the one instigating trouble.

It wasn't and will never be a term used to describe bands that don't fit power or thrash metal. I've pointed this out many times and I won't carry on this. And the article you pointed out does not apply because I disagreed with you... obviously.

I'm not here to look for trouble, even if you somehow assume I am. I am here to help improve wikipedia just like you. As many people do (which is against what you say) think that speed metal is a main genre of heavy metal music (more so than some claimed on the heavy metal genre page) I do not understand why it is not accepted.

I don't think there is any use in you replying again unless you state something which hasn't been stated yet. I'm not dumb... so don't think that i've missed some huge important point you had previously made. Thanks for your time. --PureHolocaust 17:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Can you name 1 band which is distinctly speed metal and neither thrash nor power metal? I know I can't. marnues 18:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Motorhead (not constantly speed metal on all albums but not thrash nor power), Venom (definitely not power, some might say thrash but not many would say venom started thrash metal), first helloween (some might say power metal but i'm sorry, their first album sounds nothing like their later power metal albums musically and it certainly isn't thrash metal). And if we are talking about songs then a lot of iron maiden track 1's are pretty much speed metal, not power nor thrash. Speed metal is sped up trad metal. Thrash metal is punk influenced trad metal. Power metal WAS heavier trad metal (not anymore but thats nothing to do with speed metal). These are all different in my opinion and the opinion of many others.
First off, your last statement made several personal attacks, so you violated WP:NPA. Then your also trying to violate WP:CITE and WP:NPOV. Well, thats three policys. Let me see, Policys > Your POV.
(Edit) I just checked your contributions. Albight updating and expanding some articles, i find it ironic how youve been changing bands genres from Thrash Metal/Power Metal to Speed Metal on various articles. Ley Shade 18:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I specifically aimed my last reply to prevent any personal attacks. What i'm also talking about is nothing to do with neutral point of view in the article. Discussing whether an article deserves to be classified as something (or even exist on wikipedia) is nothing to do with keeping a neutral point of view because it either is... or isn't.

I would also like to point out that the ONLY contribution I have made to wikipedia is to pretty much recreate the agent steel page because there were 4 lines of text... look how much there is now? I've kept everything neutral within that too... It already said in the article they were SPEED METAL. It said that before i edited it, it said that on page creation yet there was only the classification of thrash metal at the bottom. I changed this to speed metal as the speed metal band catagory page already existed (so why not use it?) and so i changed it to where it was supposed to go.

Which bands have i changed from thrash metal/power metal to speed metal? Spreading lies such as this must surely be against the rules... --PureHolocaust 19:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

WHAT A MISCONCEPTION! This article is so incorrect, and I am astonished at the lack of knowledge shown off by the writer(s) of it. The timeline says late 70's - before thrash metal or power metal! And speed metal is *NOT* always related to thrash metal or power metal. Examples: Motorhead is a great example. They predate power/thrash and arguably helped create speed metal. Venom is a good example too - some classify them as thrash, but anyone who knows what they are talking about would strongly disagree. Both bands predate power/thrash, and are NOT related to them. Judas Priest's Painkiller is not related to either genre really, and it came MUCH after speed metal was being played. Seriously, keeping the article like this shows off tons of POV, especially since this does not include that many (if not most) people think speed metal is a genre. PLEASE consider this, and do not show off this much ignorance. --Ryouga 01:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
PureHolocaust - thank you bro. You know what you're talking about.
"The bands that 'play pure speed metal' ironically, always play power or thrash." !!!!! This proves a lack of knowledge from your part. Please forgive me if I sound rude, but what a terribly ignorant thing to say. --Ryouga 01:12, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Judas Priest's "Stained Class" is generally regarded by thrashers (who almost always listen to speed metal as well) as the first speed metal album. Interesting how the article cites speed metal's origins as power and thrash CONSIDERING neither of those genres existed at the time. Pasajero 12:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with PureHolocaust, speed metal is a true Metal genre. --Epikon 17:01, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Guys, I think I speak for most of us when I say, "Let's start the rewrite!" I'll get to it some time soon, feel free to correct what you can.

My quick input. Though people keep labeling Juda; Priest as the first speed metal band, I would definitely say that's a very liberal use of the genre. The only album they did that I would consider speed metal is Painkiller. They are very much a Power Metal band. Motorhead is Heavy/Speed Metal. Can't say much about Venom as I don't like them much. However, I would bet that they would fall fairly well into Heavy Metal (maybe even Power Metal). I agree that this article needs a rewrite as I would say Speed Metal came from people playing any form of Heavy Metal that just wanted to speed up their music. But again it doesn't make a distinct genre. marnues 02:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you in part. Judas priest only released one album which can be considered a speed metal album that is painkiller. They are pretty much a traditional heavy metal band, definitely not to be considered a power metal band. Motorhead definitely had the speed metal sound inbedded into a lot of their work and i agree with what you said about them. Venom is no way near power metal, no way at all. You said you don't like them much, you should go back and listen to them again, not to like them but to realise that what you said is pretty damn false. They took Motorhead's sound to a new level and definitely retained the speed metal.
Not exactly sure how you read what I said about Venom, but I didn't say anything about them. I said I didn't know much about them, but I suggested that maybe they do fit into one of the other genres, which someone else said they were power metal. For all I know they do fit well into power metal, since as you pointed out, I don't know them very well. Also, I find a very common link between power metal of today and typical heavy metal of the late 70's early 80's, so I sometimes prefer to classify bands like Judas Priest or Iron Maiden as power metal. Probably should have stuck to heavy metal for Judas Priest here though. marnues 00:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Speed metal has a distinct sound. There are a wide variety of bands who play speed metal, but thats the same for any genre of music. Does Among the Living sound like Pleasure to Kill? How about Arghoslent sounding like Krisiun? The point is that every sub genre of metal really only has a few things that tie bands together, just like speed metal.--PureHolocaust 17:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Sure every genre has differences. Some bands take clear influences from other genres. However, that's not at stake here. Speed metal as a genre is completely non-unique. There are no speed metal bands who distinctly play only speed metal. They play some other form of metal (usually thrash or power, but also heavy, death, black), but speed it up to the point where it shares some similarities with other bands who play fast metal. If you think speed metal is a distinct genre, you'll have to find bands which don't fit well into any other metal genre. I certainly do not know of any bands like that. marnues 00:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Let's see if I can come up with such a list. Pasajero 09:35, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Venom - to claim that musically they are black would be rather odd since black metal itself is not a real genre rather an ideology/mindset. Thrash would be a very inaccurate description of them. Power metal? Not even close.
  • Iron Angel - thrash!? no way! their riffs lack the choppiness of thrash; power is out of the question
  • Exciter - see Iron Angel
  • Bulldozer - see Venom

Here is an interesting thread that spurred up in the Metal-Archives forums. It speaks of the differences between speed and thrash. http://www.metal-archives.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=7639&highlight=&sid=a03d4665a29e43c7d347965537c7ffba Pasajero 11:34, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

This articles requires a massive overhaul. The current assertion that Speed Metal has its origins in Power and Thrash is utter rubbish. Speed Metal predates both genres. Thrash was basically a stylistic extention of Speed metal which added complexity, versatility, and tempo changes to the combined punk rock and new wave heavy metal music of the latter. Wisdom89 23:39, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

The idea that speed metal predates thrash or is even a genre in its own right is a product of the tendency for modern recent listeners to categorize metals evolution into a neatly digestable, chronological process. heavymetal>speed metal>thrash metal>death>black - However, the truth is that thrash and death metal evolved at the same time, and speed metal is just a made up genre super-imposed between heavy metal and death/thrash. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.135.20.224 (talk) 04:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Into the Void?

I don't think that Into the Void by Black Sabbath is speed metal. It just isn't speedy. It's a fantastic song, one of my favorite from Sabbath, but it exemplifies Sabbath's slow, lumbering, sludgy style. I think that this song should be removed as an early speed metal song.


This article is silly, there is no such Genre as Speed Metal, that's why there are no good band examples. Just because a song is fast and uses distorted guitar makes it Speed Metal? Sheesh, this is ridiculous. 24.23.168.20 10:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My humble opinion

I'm an old hardcore-speed metal-fan and I can actually say that you guys are all fucked up =_=' you need a site to say to you what is speed and what is not and reading the article is obvious that you haven't understood anything. well guys, first of all LISTEN to the music, don't read it! Listen to 500/700 albums that may be called speed and find yourself what speed really is. Start with Exciter, then to the BELGIAN scene, then to the american, then to the scandinavian... and fuck up all those german shitty things, it (mostly) isn't speed! But the main thing is to JUDGE WITH YOUR EARS! listen to the born of speed, then go ahead to our days. This should be done with all heavy metal in fact, 'cause I'm reading something really ridicolous like "glam metal" and bullshits like this... Open your ears and close your eyes, guys. With love, an old, offended speedmetalbanger. (hope this will change something...)

--Response

Did and discovered a few GLAM METAL bands had one or two speed metal songs, mainly RATT and Motley Crue, and a couple had many, Twisted Sister and W.A.S.P. Skid Row alos took the speed metal path in the 1990's. Not starting an arguement, just stating I opened up my ears and judged and found a fast glam bands or glam bands with a couple of speed metal songs.

--Response 2 This an encyclopedia, which has as purpose to make articles about various subjects, such as music. People who want to find out things, either because they don't have time to research or the resources to do so, read these articles. So I vote we ignored what's written above and continue to write about speed metal.

[edit] Glam Metal?

I know that I'm going get laughed at probably, but I don't give a shit. It's my opinion. There were some glam metal songs with speed metal sounds. Examples:

  • "Body Talk" by Ratt is definatly a speed metal styled song. It is slow and lame for 20 sceonds, but then it kicks into overdrive. Robbin Crosby and Warren DeMartini are basically playing for their lives in the song and it's definatly fast.
  • "Live Wire" by Motley Crue is also extremely fast paced and sounds like an early thrash song. Faster than Highway Star.
  • "Over the Mountain" by Ozzy Osbourne is also very fast played. Randy Rhoads has a monster riff that's fast paced, right when it opens and Carmine Appice's drumming is very fast.

Other Heavy Metal genres had Speed Metal styled songs:

  • "Queen of the Reich" by Queensryche is a very fast paced song. With Chris DeGarmo and Michael Wilton playing very fast. Scott Rockenfeld also used minor blast beats.
  • "Blackout" by Scorpions is another speed metal styled song. Rudy Schenker and Matthias Jabs are playing fast and Klaus Meine is singing fast as well.
  • "Slave to the Grind" by Skid Row is also fast and mean. Sabo's guitar playing and Bolan's bass playing are fast and Bach's vocals are speedy.
  • "Wait and Bleed" by Slipknot is another very fast song, hardcore styled.
  • "Dig" by Mudvayne is also very fast.
  • "B.Y.O.B." by System of a Down is another speed metal styled song. Daron's playing fast for quiet a while and Serj is also singing very fast.
  • Twisted Sister also had a few, like "Under the Blade," "Stay Hungry," Don't Let Me Down," and "You Can't Stop Rock & Roll."
  • Inbstrumentals should also count, like Van Halen's "Eruption."
  • "Straight For the Heart" by Whitesnake is also semi-fast.
  • "TV Crimes" by Black Sabbath is another speed metal styled song. Sabbath was speed metal band, but only when Dio was with them. The Dehumanizer was basically a speed metal album with "TV Crimes" and "Time Machine."
  • "And last but not least, let's not forget Dio's "Stand Up and Shout." This song is very fast.


While it is true that many non-speed metal bands have recorded speed metal songs, it would be inappropiate to include them in the article or list of bands because that would give the impression that they actually play speed metal when they don't. As for SOAD, Slipknot, and Mudvayne they aren't even metal but rock. Besides speed metal by definition is sped up traditional metal a sound which none of previously mentioned bands have. Simply playing fast isn't enough to be considered speed metal. Pasajero 19:47, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


I agree with Pasajero, just because a band has a fairly fast song does not make it speed metal. Most of the examples cited above are erroneuos. "Whiplash" by Metallica is a perfect example of what speed metal really is and you should pick a song like that to judge all the rest against in writing this article. Otherwise you'll end up doing what the person above did and cite any band that has a song with a faster than normal beat as speed metal.

[edit] So when is the rewrite going to happen?

Most everyone here agrees that speed metal is a genre on its own. I would also like to point out that the power metal article claims to have origins in speed metal therefore how can speed metal originate from power? (as suggested by this article)
1. Helloween mixed fast speed metal riffs with melodic ones and added Iron Maiden-like powerful vocals, further cleaning the sound.
2. Power metal, as the term is used today, places primary importance on an epic sound, usually at high speeds, primarily due to its speed metal roots, and with catchy melodies.
To sum it up, speed metal is fast traditional metal having its roots in the 1978 release "Stained Class" by Judas Priest (regardless whether you consider them speed or not). How can speed metal have its origins in thrash. Thrash came into existence around 1984. Bands like Motorhead, Venom, early Exodus, Exciter, Kill 'Em All-era Metallica, and Fistful of Metal-era (recorded in 83) Anthrax were all before 1984. So what were they playing? They were playin speed metal (mixed with other metal genres). Note that there were always "thrashy" demos before 1984, but being thrashy doesn't make it thrash. The afore mentioned bands might as well receive credit for creating speed metal in addition to Priest. As for "Red Skies Demo" by Metal Church and Exodus' first demo being thrash demos that predate 1984, sure the birth of thrash elements can be found there, but remember that these demo combined MANY elements of metal (namely speed) not just thrash. Therefore they can't be considered full on thrash. Any assertions that speed is just another term for "power metal", "thrash", or "metal simply played fast" are completely erroneous. This one of the most common mistakes made by so-called "metalheads". Hell, on one of the "Transcending the Mundane" editorials the author calls Dark Angel speed metal. And I thought these guys were supposed to be seasoned veterans. Yeahhhhhh........
For anyone who might argue that Kill 'Em All is pure thrash.
Listen to Hit the Lights, Motorbreath, Whiplash, Phantom Lord, & Metal Militia. 6 songs in all. That's more than half of the tracks from the album. These are clearly not thrash metal songs. They are speed metal. Speed/Thrash would be a much more accurate description of the album.
Speed metal gave birth to power and thrash metal. Those who incorporated bouncier more melodic riffs along with more falsetto like vocals created what would soon become known as power metal. Speed metal fused with hardcore punk introduced choppier speed/traditional riffs along with faster tempos and would end up being called thrash metal.
Candidates for the first speed metal album (as opposed to demo/recording):
  • Judas Priest - Stained Class - 1978 (many may just cite this as an influence)
  • Riot - Fire Down Under - 1981
  • Venom - Welcome to Hell - 1981
Pasajero 09:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


I've attempted a partial re-write today, derived from information already in the article. Although the blocked user Leyasu (who I'm sure many of you are familar with) seems to have a vendetta against the articles improve and continues to revert the hard work. If any of you who have previously worked on it can provide some sources that would be great, thanks. - Deathrocker 04:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Sources and non-subjective, non-POV claims would also be helpfull. I wont revert improvements, so if i revert, you know full well that what was put most definatly was NOT an improvement. Ley Shade

[edit] List of Speed Metal bands

I believe it would be a great idea to see if we can maintain a list of speed metal albums, not single songs from glam rock bands. I'll start the list off with a couple. If you can think of anymore then add it to the bullet point list here. We can use this list to flesh out the article and to maybe rejuvinate the speed metal bands list article.

Judas Priest - Painkiller
Exciter - Heavy Metal Maniac
Rage - Perfect Man
Anthrax - Fistful of Metal
Iron Angel - Hellish Crossfire
Gamma Ray - Powerplant
Helloween - Walls Of Jericho
Agent Steel - Unstoppable Force
X-Japan - Blue Blood
Iron Savior - Unification
Bulldozer - The Day of Wrath
Venom - Welcome To Hell
Running Wild - Gates To Purgatory
Paradox - Product Of Imagination
Abattoir - Vicious Attack
Grave Digger - Heavy Metal Breakdown
Riot - Thundersteel
Blind Guardian - Battalions of Fear

If anyone disagrees then say why below. --PureHolocaust 20:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I think both lists should be implemented, as you mentioned it would flesh out the article a bit. - Deathrocker 21:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Both lists? what is the second one :S --PureHolocaust 22:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Second one is the song list that was already there. - Deathrocker 00:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if there is any particular reason whu noone lists Megadeth. They are one of the most famous bands which are actually labeled as speed metal. Izzy999 19:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Megadeth is not, nor have they ever been, Speed metal. Wisdom89 19:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Megadeth is not a speed metal band. They may have had the odd speed metal songs or even just some speed metal elements to some songs (for example Rattlehead from their debut) but I don't really think any of their albums can be considered speed metal.--PureHolocaust 12:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I dont doubt your knowledge of this genre, but IMO Megadeth is one of the best known bands that is actually cathegorised as speed metal. Are all these critics who label Rust in Peace as one of the most innovative speed metal albums wrong, for example? Many of the songs on that album are very fast, poison was the cure for example, and it is difficult for me to comprehend how Priests Painkiller can be a prime example of speed metal, while Megadeth isn't speed metal at all. Izzy999 21:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Rust in Peace is a thrash album with power metal tendancies. Again there are some speed metal sections in the songs as with most of their albums. As they are considered one of the key thrash metal bands... considered as one of the "big four" of thrash metal, it would be wrong to be classify them as speed metal.--PureHolocaust 16:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite by me

Can the user Deathrocker please allow me to rewrite the article as promised a couple of months back (scroll up). You have reverted everything that i've just typed and i'm afraid you will do it again. Thank you. --PureHolocaust 00:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I haven't revert it all, I've added significant earlier parts into stuff you added.. and also, you moved some info from the origins of Speed metal section, about the 1st Speed metal albums, into the "1980s evolution of Speed metal" section, which didn't make sense.
I've also added section for derivative forms (such as Thrash metal, Power metal, Glam metal, etc) in the info box - Deathrocker 00:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Well ok. The reason everything may have been messed up was because I am in the process of rewriting, nothing is finalised yet and so it may look a little messy for a while. Thanks for your contributions to this article though. --PureHolocaust 00:42, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

REWRITE COMPLETE: The rewrite is complete. Please do NOT revert, please do not add anything about Visual Kei as it has NOTHING to do with speed metal whatsoever. Please do not add multiple albums for any one band in the small list of albums. Keep it to one album per band as this is NOT a comprehensive list. Do not talk about bands in the history of speed metal that had barely anything to do with the evolution and continuation of speed metal. Please try to improve in places which you feel the article is lacking. Thanks to everyone who has helped with this article. --PureHolocaust 13:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I've added the Visual Kei part into your rewrite. There are a large number of Visual Kei bands who have used Speed metal, you may not be aware of them but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. not all Visual Kei bands are Speed metal, but a good percentage are..
For example X-Japan,[1], Aikaryu, [2], Sex Machineguns [3], Moi dix Mois [4], Madeth Gray'll, etc, etc are example of Visual Kei bands who use Speed metal in their music, it warrants a mention. - Deathrocker 16:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
The only bands you've mentioned who have any speed metal in is early X-Japan and Sex machineguns even though from the looks of it, sex machineguns arnt even visual kei.


[edit] Clean up

I took the liberty of reworking some of the rhetoric in the article, mostly for the sake of readiability. I feel that it's abit more fluid now. I didn't really touch the content of the article though, as I agree with nearly all of the claims. However, I did alter the definition somewhat. I'm not sure how any of the main editors who are involved in this rewrite feel about it. Wisdom89 22:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Pretty much my rewrite although Deathrocker added some stuff about visual kei and also helped keep the current version through reverting those which do not read talk pages.
One problem I have is with the definition of speed metal which you changed. The sources you used (notably anus) defines speed metal as what the majority call thrash metal (metallica, slayer, exodus, watchtower etc) and thrash metal as crossover (DRI, cryptic slaughter etc). I guess there still is punk influence in speed metal, but highway star by deep purple (possible first speed metal song) didnt have any punk influence at all, neither did early judas priest. The only punk influence I can see is with the NWOBHM speed metal bands, not pre-NWOBHM (where speed metal started) speed metal. I guess if its changed to have a "now" in it... or "currently" then it'll work. However, the sources are basically contradicting the article by saying thrash metal is speed metal and so they arn't really relavent.--PureHolocaust 11:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Point taken - for now I'll just revert the definition back to its former. As for what you mentioned about Highway Star, I think what's important to keep in mind is that it was really a precursory speed metal song - it had the trappings of speed metal, but not really what is thought of when we speak of contemporary speed metal, or even speed metal that existed in the 80s. I always felt that the blending of the punk aesthetic with metal was more universal, rather than limited to one particular sect of metal. Wisdom89 13:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I have since removed the sources in the lead on account that they are of questionable validity. They should be replaced with ones that are more reliable. I'll see what I can come up with after digging around. Print sources might not be a bad idea. I left the punk reference in there though since I'm confident of its veracity, just not the extent of it. Feel free to amend as you see fit. Wisdom89 21:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
Well I guess speed metal does tend to have punk influence, but I can't say it is required. If you take motorhead for example, they do have punk influence in their music. If you take judas priest, they don't really have much punk influence, especially not in painkiller. But i think its accurate enough to keep it in.--PureHolocaust 22:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Could maybe use some clarification?

I'm speaking as a user unfamiliar with the usual genre classifications used in music. The purpose of encyclopedia articles is twofold of course, to give people familiar with a usbject more detailed information on that subject, and to give people unfamiliar with a subject a basic understanding. This article appears to do well on the former task, but not so well on the latter. That is to say, it doesn't really give any explanation as to what speed metal actually is, except by defining it in terms of musicians and specific songs, which the reader may not have heard before. So I ask, could someone ass a description, preferably near the top, of what qualities speed metal has, what makes a song in particulr speed metal or not? Errick 17:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article...

Guys..I think we need to acknowledge that in common usage, the term speed metal is most often used as a synonym for thrash metal, though more often for the melodic / less raw and thrashy bands. It seems odd to claim it as a distinct genre and then try to say that every band from Deep Purple up is part of it just because they released some faster metal songs...one song does not include a band in a genre...influence yes...but its not really clear in the article

Most people who use it as a synonym aren't even thrashers. It is usually used (in that context) by fans of other heavy metal genres who know little about the genre. Any thrasher can tell you that speed metal is not the same as thrash. You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that definition (although you could have mentioned the lack of hardcore punk influence in speed metal). --Pasajero 11:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
This user speaks the truth. "Thrash metal" is a term invented to sell records, and is rejected by most people with some insight into the issue. "Speed metal" is the correct name. 88.70.26.217 (talk) 12:34, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Now there's some POV. Just like at the bottom of this page where a reader tries to argue that this article shouldn't exist. Where do you find the time to make these fairy tale opinions up? 156.34.222.121 (talk) 13:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Where's Megadeth

I find the fact that Megadeth is not mentioned once in this article disturbing.Seriuosly Megadeth is a solid staple of speed metal.So just mention Megadeth in this article please. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Necro Ferrum (talk • contribs) 16:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

You're absolutely right! The problem is that for the last 20+ years Megadeth has been falsely categorized as thrash (sure they have their moments, but come on). The moment anyone adds Megadeth to the article some bozo (who obviously can't tell the difference between speed and thrash) comes and removes them. I don't worry about it since it's too late to do anything about it now. I think it's way more important to get "metalheads" to realize that bands like Machine Head and Pantera aren't thrash rather than Megadeth. --Pasajero 02:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I would say Megadeth deserves classification as both a speed and a thrash metal band--E tac 01:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad to see Megadeth is now mentioned, and in response to your comment Pasajero Megadeth is both Thrash and Speed Metal.So they should be mentioned in both articles, Necro Ferrum Out.

[edit] FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE

how in the world is this song not speed metal? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.16.193.253 (talk) 13:52, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

Definately thrash. "Trapped Under Ice" is more speed than "Fight Fire With Fire". --Pasajero 01:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SPEED PICKING

um wouldnt this be a defining characteristic of speed metal? so again please explain to me how fight fire with fire isnt a speed metal song.

Fight Fire with Fire is a Thrash Metal song.--129.31.68.55 12:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hard Rock Influence

Im sure Hard Rock had some Influence on Speed Metal, Queen, Deep Purple, MC5, and just about any Hard Rock band that played fast had to have some influence on Speed Metal. Gordomebix 03:15, 15 April 2007 (UTC)Gordomebix


[edit] Dragonforce?

In what ways are Dragonforce speed metal? They've seemed the epitome of flower/power metal to me. 65.182.53.225 22:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

That person obviously doesn't know what speed metal is. Mistake on his/her part. --Pasajero 01:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:No Sleep 'til Hammersmith.jpg

Image:No Sleep 'til Hammersmith.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 15:51, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Forgive me for being a little skeptical, but....

"Speed metal" doesn't sound like a real genre to me. The article never identifies any specific characteristics to the genre (other than a fast tempo), and the examples it cites of speed metal consist almost entirely of bands associated with other genres. What emerged in the 1980s was thrash, whose immediate progenitor was NWOBHM. There was no distinct "speed metal" genre to bridge the gap; the article seems to be talking simply about proto-thrash. marbeh raglaim 07:50, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

"the article seems to be talking simply about proto-thrash." It sort of is talking about proto-thrash. But speed metal and thrash metal are different. Thats what most people dont understand.

"The article never identifies any specific characteristics to the genre (other than a fast tempo)" Heres a direct quote from the article: "keeping (Judas Priest's, Black Sabbath's, Led Zeppelin's, and Deep Purple's) melodic ideas" Translation: it is very melodic. Prepare to be Mezmerized! :D 16:11, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

There is also a difference lyric wise: thrash deals for example with satanism, the occult and social problems (what's the right word), and speed metal has lyrics more like heavy metal (can't come up with something general right now). Don't remember where i heard/read this, but it may have come from Metal: A Headbanger's Journey. Grinder0-0 21:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
That's a faulty blanket statement; lyrics can't be used to differentiate between thrash and speed. Many bands in the German, French, and East-European speed metal scenes (most notably KAT, the first Running Wild album and Avenger) had MORE occult imagery and lyrical themes than many thrash bands. Also, people seem to forget that lyrics dealing with the occult or Satanic topics (whether they are serious or not or whether they are pro or con is another matter) are not limited to thrash or extreme metal bands, they've been an integral part of the lyrical and visual content of traditional heavy metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.21.190.132 (talk) 21:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I am open to being convinced that speed metal is a real genre, but this article hasn't come close to making the case, and in any case is poorly written.

Just saying it's played at a fast tempo and has melody and traditional lyrics and lacks thrash elements doesn't say much or justify its inclusion in its own genre. None of those characteristics suggest much of a separation from classic metal. The definition is still vague enough to include a wide variety of unrelated music.

What this article needs is (1) A list of specific characteristics that distinguish it from other metal subgenres, including heavy metal itself (2) Examples of bands that fit the bill without being associated primarily with other genres (3) A suitable time frame for speed metal to develop (4) Most importantly, support for these claims from reliable sources. marbeh raglaim 13:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to preface this by stating that I occasionally find Martin Popoff's definitions a little unusual, but at the back of his weighty 'Collectors Guide To Heavy Metal' he delineates between Speed Metal and Thrash (p.529):

"Speed Metal - exactly what it says and nothing more. Loosely the same as OTT without the additional connotations. Speed metal can either be done thrash or techno, that is with reckless abandon, or scientific precision, yet it is very often thrash because most intelligent bands quickly see the limiting aesthetics of constantly playing at 78 RPM, and move on to ultra-heavy, groove or techno forms of metal. Metallica, Megadeth and Slayer went this route. Anthrax did the opposite for a couple of records, until seeing the light with Sound Of White Noise."

Either way, there's a decent source for a definition of speed metal, so should be mentioned somewhere. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 03:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

In other words, the first source that people here bring to define the term basically admits it has no precise definition ("exactly what it says and nothing more") and, contrary to what others here have insisted, overlaps with thrash. marbeh raglaim (talk) 07:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Kimbabig 50.jpg

Image:Kimbabig 50.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 09:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This page needs deleted.

The usage of "Speed metal" for a separate and finite genre originated after the year 2000. There was no speed metal movement, and there is only a handful of bands that have the so called "speed metal" sound, and most of them only exist well after bonafide thrash metal bands existed. This is an issue of revisionist history, arbitrarily creating genre distinctions where there are none. As such I am going to delete the contents of this page and redirect speed metal to the thrash metal page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.135.20.224 (talk) 22:22, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

We using discussion and consensus before making wholesale changes to an article. Creating redirects effectively destroys the page. If you feel the article needs to be deleted submit it for WP:AfD Wisdom89 (talk) 23:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


Speed metal does not exist. The genre was called power metal in the 80s, and speed metal refered to bands we know call thrash metal. The terms mean the same thing. Speed metal as a separate genre is a new concept that has no historical or logical base. End this discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.135.20.224 (talk) 01:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, you provide no reliable sources, making your edits more akin to original research and POV pushing than anything else. I already pointed you in the correct direction to address your objection to the article. Go through the proper channels instead of inciting an edit war. Wisdom89 (talk) 06:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Judas Priest Painkiller.jpg

Image:Judas Priest Painkiller.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Speed Metal Symphony

83.10.203.152 (talk) 00:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I would actually love to see Jason Becker and Marty Friedman of Cacophony credited for actually creating the speed metal genre... Well, at least the term :)

thanks!