Talk:Speak White

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i don't like the sandbox

Hey everybody, in the first sentence I modified the "was" for "is", because as of my experience, it is still used (2006)... sorry, it isn't because I'm a francophone and I'm anti-anglo or whatever, it's just that I experienced it more than once.

This page is ridiculous please delete it.

Contents 1 Fact tag 2 Reverting 3 A Canadian from Quebec with something to add... 4 Current usage 5 Removal unneccessary

[edit] Fact tag

I understand why the unreferenced tag and my original fact tag were removed, but the additional sources which have been added are not primary sources, and they especially do not allow any generalization about the frequency ("a common insult") with which this phrase was used. I'm willing to be edified on this. The last time I lived in Quebec was 1949, so I'm not exactly well versed on this issue. However, I do know that the frequency with which this phrase was/is used is disputed, so some scholarly reference would be useful. Actually, I'd be satisfied with some statements from users from Quebec about how often they hear or used to hear this phrase (or use or used to use it), but I'm afraid that would constitute original research by Wikipedia's rules. John FitzGerald 17:32, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I certainly agree that it could use some more notable sources, or a rewording, but to me the citation maybe calls into question whether it happened at all, to someone new to the topic. I think the large number of offhand references in google hits makes it seem like a known and perhaps common insult, but if you can recommend a more "important" source for me to look in, I'd be more than happy to do the work. I tried searching for it in some newspapers but had a hard time getting a straight article. Dan Carkner 17:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the prompt reply. I can't recommend a source, but may actually go and look for one. My particular problem at the moment is with the assertion that it was "common." It would be nice to know exactly how common it was/is supposed to be. As I said, I'll take people's word for it, if they can estomate how often they heard it. Although Wikipedia rules don't approve of that type of evidence, I think this is one of those issues where the Wikipedia rules is a ass, and I could look the other way if I was persuaded. John FitzGerald 17:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverting

I really disagree with the changes being made here. This article is about a poem that describes prejudice against french-speaking Québecois in Canada. It is not about the vietnam war and imperialism (except indirectly).. Why use an ultra-strict interpretation of citation to erase an important element of someone's history? I will look it up in Quebec literature books at the library, please don't just make this article about nothing, put a fact tag if you want. Dan Carkner 00:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Since the article was basically trimmed down to one mis-attributed fact, I tried for a while to find sources for some of the things that were written before. Again I don't know what counts as the ultimate citation on here, since we're talking about an extremely impolite slur. A search on google reveals hundreds of mentions in all sorts of places, at this point I don't think there's any doubt that it *was* said to put down French-speakers in Canada. Dan Carkner 04:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your point of view, but none of these sources is objective – no data from refereed research journals, for example. They are simply the assertions of small numbers of people that it was used, with no estimates of frequency. Even if there is no doubt that it was said, the question is how widely it was used and how frequently. None of the sources answers that question. John FitzGerald 13:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

In particular, the source given for the assertion "The expression has fallen out of use and has rarely been heard since the 1960s, although it is not unheard of" is completely inadequate. It's one person's opinion, and it says little about relative frequency. Is the assertion that the expression was once rare and now has vanished, or that it was frequent and now has vanished? John FitzGerald 13:07, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm open to that last part being taken out. I was just trying to give some kind of context. Anyways it's still an improvement over what it was reduced to before.. I didn't write in anywhere how often it was said, also. Dan Carkner 17:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it should come out. Thanks to you we are getting somewhere with this. I'll think about it and see if I can come up with anything. I don't want to minimize this but neither do I want the article to leave an exaggerated impression of the frequency with which the phrase was used (not that I'm implying that it does, only that objective evidence that it doesn't would be helpful). John FitzGerald 18:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Canadian from Quebec with something to add...

The poem is not just about injustice toward French-Canadians by English-Canadians... it's about linguistic imperialism and imperialism in general. It cites both poorer English and French Canadians as brothers in the discrimination against them. Both the King's English and proper bourgeois French were respectable languages across the world at that time and today, but the English and French dialects spoken by poor Canadians of both linguistic groups were both despised and chided as ugly and their speakers were looked down upon by the rich. This should be touched on in the article I think.

If you have a source for these assertions, quote and cite it. John FitzGerald 12:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

From the text of the poem itself :

parlez un français pur et atrocement blanc

comme au Viêt-Nam au Congo

parlez un allemand impeccable

une étoile jaune entre les dents

--193.51.5.193 (talk) 10:22, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

And since the average English Canadian couldn't tell an upper or lower-class French dialect from Swahili, I suspect that linguistic imperialism has less explanatory value than imperialism pure and simple. John FitzGerald 17:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Current usage

I have removed the sentence "The expression has fallen out of use and has rarely been heard since the 1960s, although it is not unheard of" as the reference, a 1998 statement from Ontario MPP Gilles E. Morin, indicates quite the opposite: "Long gone too is the attitude of the anglophone officer who, on meeting me for the first time, told me to "speak white." Victoriagirl 00:07, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

That would seem to me to imply that only the phrase "and has rarely...since the 1960s" should be removed. Morin does say the attitude is "long gone." A more important issue is the degree to which Morin constitutes a reliable source according to Wikipedia standards. For example, another thing that has changed in his life is his prominence, and prominent people don't get told to speak white. For all he knows ordinary people could still be getting told this. John FitzGerald 17:14, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I think Morin's quote is very much open to interpretation. For example, he states the "attitude" is "long gone" - and really doesn't address as to whether or not the term is as popular as it once was or whether it is in use at all. To my eyes, the reference really didn't provide any support for the statement. I have no arguement with the reintroduction of the sentence, but feel a source is required. Victoriagirl 17:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I agree with the removal on those grounds. A large part of the problem here, and in Anti-Quebec sentiment, seems to be the reluctance of the Canadian academy to do scholarly research about topics like this. We know Quebec-bashing happens, but there apparently has been no real study of its frequency, or a comparison with the frequency of Anglo-bashing in Quebec. Similarly, there seems to be no scholarly (and little journalistic) evidence of the frequency of use of this phrase which seems to occupy a central place in some people's conceptions of Canada (I'm not being sarcastic – smoke often appears whre there's fire). John FitzGerald 23:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal unneccessary

I've rewritten the article to better reflect verifiable claims. The poem, although highly incendiary, is an important piece of work in Canadian literature. I've also removed some of unverifiable references, replaced some with good references, and asked for new ones where neccessary. I think this article is now neutral. --Soulscanner 07:21, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

This article sounds like the French-Canadians invented the expression "Speak White" to appear as victims. The only "evidence" is "anecdotal".

Her poem is not, however, directed solely or even primarily at English Canada, often citing British and American references such as Shakespeare, Keats, the Thames, the Potomac and Wall Street as its symbols of linguistic oppression.

Actually it is solely directed at English Canada. It's said "you're speaking with the accent of Milton and Byron and Shelley and Keats". Then it says "speak white like in Wall Street". But it's the English-speaking Canadians -not Wall Street- who said this to the French-Canadians (something like "you'd better be talking a language with power"). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Faef (talk • contribs) 10:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)