Talk:Sparta

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[edit] SPARTA redirect

i redirected SPARTA to this article. --11gaudrco1 (talk) 19:07, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] dual Kingship

Can we get some sources for this section under the constitution header? There are a bunch of theories in there I have never heard of, and I studied Sparta as a subject for quite a long time.Akaricloud (talk) 10:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't claim to be an expert by any stretch. I did not read any primary sources; I only used the following secondary sources:
If I am wrong, I would like to know it, and would be happy to change the graphic.--Publius97 (talk) 16:29, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rise and Decline

I just read the Rise and decline section and I feel that a mentioning of the battle of Thermopylae which takes up several lines is both irrelevant to that section of the article and also far too emotional. I think it was added by someone who had just watched 300. I think it should be removed, or at least cropped significantly so it just gets a side mentioning.Akaricloud (talk) 10:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I concur. And the use of the word 'sickly' in describing the unfit Spartan infants is a direct lift from Frank Miller that is very tasteless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by T.elias13 (talk • contribs) 00:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I don't mean to criticise // This article needs a MAJOR clean up

Please do not misconstrue what I am about to write, I appreciate the effort that has gone into this article. But it seems to me that the current article is filled to the brim with both irrelevent information and information which is not backed up or is just plain missing. I plan to do a large edit of the entire Spartan article when I get some spare time (and access to my books and references once again) If you look above you will see I already started pointing out individual sections which I see problems with, however I think it is best if I just make a list of all the problems I see with the article and then post them as Durim Durimi did above. I personally have no qualifications on the Spartan topic, and most of what I know came through study with books printed over 10 years ago. A lot of new ideas which contradict what I learned may have surficed, however I don't think its possible that all that much has changed in 10 years. I think as part of the Greek Collectorate this should have top priority to be cleaned up. Akaricloud (talk) 11:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Go for it. I only have Sparta watchlisted so that I can revert the folks who replace parts or all of the article with "This is Sparta!" periodically. Ealdgyth | Talk 16:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
In fairness, it is Sparta, hence the title/subject of the article. --NEMT (talk) 05:41, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you're right the verity of the section on marriage seems particularly dodgy. The Emuseum source is a "student-run organization with professional oversight". A couple of other resources. [1] [2] [3] either disagree or appear to be from the same source, none cite that source which suggests it's spurious information. Sparta Revisited seems the most cogent and thought out (doesn't make it true I know) - particular in it's disagreement of the oft-quoted Plutarch by noting that Spartan youths would know their "wives" by virtue of having grown-up in close contact with them. If sources such as "Emuseum" are to be believed then there was no incest ... to be completed Pbhj (talk) 19:53, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Modern Sparta

Does Sparta still exist? I couldn't find any mention in the article of whether or not there's still a place called that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.193.214.2 (talk) 13:46, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it's located here: Sparti (municipality). El Greco(talk) 19:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

On the infobox, it says that Sparta's rule ended in 371 BC. In the years, after 371 BC, Sparta's rule dominance of the Peloponnesian League and Greece ended as well as its control of Messenia but Sparta's self rule as a city state lasted until 189 BC when it was fully incorperated by the Achaean League. Does anyone object with it being changed? Kyriakos (talk) 04:50, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Two Corrections

In the Eugenics section a passage describes the infanticide as being carried out more extensively against women. This is true only of non-Spartan polis. In Sparta, the men that were prospective members of the Homioi were subject to infaticide for centuries which contributed to the declining birthrate of males, which weakened the able warrior-population.

This is stated explicitly in the work of Paul Cartledge, a Professor of Greece in Antiquity at Cambridge and world renowned expert on Sparta. It is stated most accessibly in a PBS documentary, 'The Spartans', for which he was the historical consultant.

Also, the program of infanticide was not as discriminating as the article suggests. There were in fact significant exceptions especially in the case of royalty. One only has to look at Lysander (who's mother was a Hellot), and Agesilaus III (Who was believed to be deformed from birth). The importance of Spartan Eugenics might better be described as a propaganda tool or the purity of linneage the Spartans thought themselves as having.

Just thought I should annotate in case nobody had caught it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by T.elias13 (talk • contribs) 21:40, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Wow hold on fellas.What has been written in the article? Spartan infants were not thrown anywhere, if they were weak they were placed in "εκθέτες" "αποθετας" depository and exposed to the elements like all Greeks did and the children were taken usually by others and raised as "θρεπτοί".Kaiadas was for criminals with miasma only and infants were merely placed in ekthetes.Megistias (talk) 21:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. I hope nobody has actually used such a specific word as 'throw' when talking about infanticide unless they have some substantial evidence. Documentaries that sensationalize Spartan history imply that unsuitable Spartan males were tossed into the Apothetae. But I suppose Frank Miller, without their help, has rewritten history for many people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by T.elias13 (talk • contribs) 00:22, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Question - the English word used here is "apothetae", which is apparently transliterated from the Greek "αποθετας" ... but that says "apothetas". What's with that? Petitphoque (talk) 11:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I think that's the way we pluralise greek borrowed words, I'm not sure if it's proper greek however but that's how we do it - compare with typothatae in dictionary where it's called a latinised plural. Pbhj (talk) 19:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)