Talk:Spanish verbs
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[edit] List of simple verbs
Beware the list has moved to a page on its own (List of Spanish verbs). Make your additions there. I moved the list because the main article was becoming really unwieldy. I've also moved the conjugation paradigm to Spanish verb paradigm. I'm thinking of moving the section on vowel-alternating verbs elsewhere, too. Wikipedia guidelines say an article should be no more than 32 KB and this is about 36 KB. --Pablo D. Flores 22:38, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hey, should I add verbs that I know, even if I'm not sure if they're really simple? -Cookiemobsta 07:24, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The list of simple verbs should not contain:
- Words which are not simple or not the most appropriate ones for a foreign learner of Spanish
- Gratuitously offensive words
- Dialectal words
I'd say this excludes chingar, a vulgar Mexican word included by an anon in order to shock.
If the vulgar, dialectal, secondary meaning of coger is to be given, then something of an equivalent register is required to translate it. "To have sex" really misses the mark. "To fuck" is a tad harsh. "To shag", or similar, is just right. Chamaeleon 10:24, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Requests
If anyone has any questions about Spanish verbs, put them here and I shall answer them in the article. Chamaeleon 02:19, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Isn't andar an irregular verb, because in the pretérito perfecto simple it's conjugated anduve not andé? And if it is, are there other verbs like it?
It is irregular indeed, there are other verbs that have a similar conjugation, such as tener (tuve) and derivated verbs: contener, sostener, mantener... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.24.136.36 (talk) 08:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Near Future
This article is lacking of the near future (I'm going to go), which is prefered in South America over the Simple Future ("Esta noche voy a ir a bailar"/"Esta noche iré a bailar").
Perhaps it woud be also good to add a short comment on the preferences of use of the pasado simple (South America) and the pretérito perfecto ("Ayer fuí a bailar"/ "Ayer he ido a bailar").
Finally, the pretérito anterior continuo ("hubiera (hubiese) estado hablando") seams to me that exists, yet I haven't been able to find an example that couldn't be expressed in another splimpler form. -Mariano July 8, 2005 10:42 (UTC)
- Note: List of Spanish verbs has been moved to Wikitonary under the name list of all spanish verbs K-unit 15:38, July 22, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Future
Hi, I am a native Mexican Spanish speaker; I just wanted to make a comment about the section about the future conjugation of spanish:
I am not sure about other countries, but here in Mexico, the future tense is not often used to express a future idea (like in english I will go) But to express a desire to know something like in this example:
JUAN: María, Laura quiere hablar contigo. / in English: Maria, Laura wants to talk to you
MARÍA: ¿Qué querrá? / literally, in English: what will she want? But correctly translated: What do you think she wants?
[edit] Future again
I just went further into the article and it seems my previous comment is already observed here. Sorry!
[edit] Perfective vs. Perfect
I believe the term "perfective" has been used incorrectly to describe the tenses/aspects formed with haber. See Grammatical_aspect#Confusing_terminology:_perfective_vs._perfect.
"Perfective" refers to actions viewed as a simple whole, as opposed to actions viewed as a process (imperfective) and actions with a resulting later state or condition (perfect). Hence, the only necessarily "perfective" tense in spanish is the simple preterite (pretérito indefinido).
Unless i am completely misguided, the term "Perfective" as it currently appears on the page should be replaced with "Perfect," to correctly describe the Spanish perfecto.
- I think you're right. I've seen the term "perfective" used to discuss more exotic languages, but only ever "perfect" in relation to Spanish. — Hippietrail 01:38, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Linkspam
Someone seems bent on including a link to www.helloworld.com.es in the external links section of this article (see the history). I have been deleting it (as have others) every time I return to see it. In my opinion it is irrelevant when they just link to the homepage of a site and you have to click throught several pages to actually find the conjugator and then, lo and behold, it's a 6Mb+ download instead of an online conjugator. What do you guys think? Should the link be included? If it is to be included, at least it should link directly to the download page (www.helloworld.com.es/english/downloads/spanishvm.htm) *and* clearly state that it is a download. This also might be a case of attemted self-promotion. LinguistAtLarge 15:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- Mmm, someone should download it and give it a try. I haven't tried any on-line conjugator, but if they are any good, then there's no need of a 'downloadable' one. Mariano(t/c) 08:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Looks like the user has been blocked. Hopefully that will take care of the problem. LinguistAtLarge 05:38, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
- Pablo-Flores I am the guilty party for the above link to www.helloworld.com.es. My native language is English and when first coming to Spain I really had a hard time learning the Spanish Verbs. The online Spanish verb conjugators were great if you just wanted the answer, but to actually learn the verbs I found it alot easier with some form of testing, so I searched the internet until I found the above link. The software does not just give you the verbs fully conjugated but actually tests you to see whether you are able to conjugate the verbs.
I do apologise for not linking directly to www.helloworld.com.es/english/downloads/spanishvm.htm I did not realise it would be such a big deal. These guys at www.helloworld.com.es provide this Spanish verb conjugator - Trainer for free, and I just thought your users would benefit from it. When you kept on removing the link, I just kept on adding it in, I just thought it was someone from the online conjugators removing it. Another thing Verbos is a software download as well and they require Java Runtime environment sort of like www.helloworld.com.es is a software download and requires .net framework.
- I apologise once again if you interpreted my contribution as Spam. It was not my intension. —This unsigned comment was added by 88.9.154.171 (talk • contribs) 06:49, 20 March 2006.
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- I understand. However (and this is for everybody), I still think this is unnecessary. The external links sections of several Spanish language-related articles are very bloated. There are a million of Spanish tutorials, conjugators, quizzes etc. and we can't test them all to see which are good enough. And the prospective student of Spanish can easily find them using a common search engine. Wikipedia is not a web directory. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 10:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Status of page
I'm looking through the main page, as well as the discussion page. The Discussion seems to have gone quiet about a year ago, and the main page has regular small updates. I'm thinking to make some changes to the main page, mostly as a vehicle for me to learn. I am not an expert in linguistics (or Spanish, for that matter).
The list at the top of the Discussion page is great; it seems to have a list of topics that still need attention (I say "seems" because I haven't checked the list versus the main page yet).
The biggest problems with the page, from my reading, is its inconsistency with similar pages (such as French verbs, English verbs, and so on); and its inconsistency with supporting pages (such as Grammatical mood, Grammatical tense, and so forth). Wouldn't it be great if the link to tense used the same definition as the words on this page ...?
Because of my lack of subject-matter knowledge, I'm hoping the community can help me improve the page. I'm not sure how the page will end up looking, but I am sure that I'll learn a lot.
DanielVonEhren 00:21, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Personalized, adjective form and other (IMHO) mistakes
Hi, as a native Spanish speaker, I'm afraid I can't agree with some of the contents of the article. Before making any correction, I would like to discuss here what I find to be mistakes.
As far as I know, there is no personalized, adjective form for every verb. It may sound convenient and can look similar to English, but nouns derived from verbs such as andante (from andar, walk), comedor (from comer, eat), hablador (from hablar, speak) do not mean, respectively walker, eater or speaker. I don't think it's a recognized form of any verb.
On the other hand, at least in Spain's Spanish language textbooks, we where taught a non-finite forms that is missing in the article: the compound gerund (e.g. habiendo hablado, having talked).
Another mistake is considering Conditional a mood. There are just three moods: Indicative, Subjunctive and Imperative. The conditional tense is part of the indicative.
I find a general trend in the article to assimilate Spanish verb conjugation to English verb conjugation. I personally think it's OK, as long as you don't introduce errors in order to avoid a long explanation. We can end up with a very clear but perfectly mistaken article.
For instance, in Spanish "continuous tenses" as such do not exist. It is true that you can use the auxiliary verb "estar" to form "continuous" tenses. You can also use "ir a" to form a future in exactly the same way you use "going to" in English. In Spanish this is called a "Perífrasis verbal" and there are lots of them, just as in English (for example: "used to do something" to indicate a habit). The thing is that they don't are "canonical" tenses.
I'll try to find a link to a complete and exact table of the verb tenses defined in Spanish to avoid misunderstandings. For the time being, allow me to list the tenses as taught in Spain:
-Indicative mood: Simple forms: Presente, pretérito imperfecto, pretérito indefinido, condicional simple, futuro simple. Compound forms: Pretérito perfecto, pretérito pluscuamperfecto, pretérito anterior, condicional compuesto, futuro compuesto.
-Subjunctive mood: Simple forms: Presente, pretérito imperfecto, futuro simple. Compound forms: Pretérito perfecto, pretérito pluscuamperfecto, futuro perfecto.
-Imperative mood: Presente.
By the way, it seems that there is a confusion between perfect tenses and compound tenses. In Spanish, they are called perfect because the action indicated by them is finished. The pretérito indefinido is also called pretérito perfecto simple, because it is a perfect, simple tense, and right now it is listed as non-perfect. So I would rename what the article refers as perfect tenses to compound tenses since they are conjugated by the composition of haber and the corresponding participle.
Sorry for the long exposition. --78.24.136.36 (talk) 09:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Condicional is not a mood, and there are no continuous tenses oficially as in English
I would like to make some comments or suggestions for correcting this article. First of all, according to the modern Spanish grammar, condicional simple and condicional compuesto are not a mood, but two tenses in the "indicative mood". There is no such mood as "conditional" in Spanish. Secondly, there are no "continuous tenses" the way it is now in the article. The verb estar and the gerund is just a periphrasis or circumlocution (of many other) that expresses continuity, but they are not verbal tenses and never were. My suggestion is consulting a conjugation of a verb from DRAE online and using the terms and categories as they are there. Regards, --TheMexican (talk) 13:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I made the necessary corrections, I also completed with some examples and explanations. --TheMexican (talk) 20:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Vosotros habéis / hesties =
Can someone confirm the form hesties? I learned this as vosotros habéis. Foros2000 (talk) 10:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
helper verb "haber" conjugated: he, has, ha, hemos, hesties, han)
