Talk:Spanish orthography

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[edit] b and v

"The letters b and v were originally simply known as be and ve. However, as Spanish doesn't distinguish between these sounds, it is necessary to add something to the names to tell them apart. "

This is completely false. The prnounciation of "b" and "v" are different. The problem is that the sounds are so closely related that people get confused. "B" is pronounced using both lips, while "V" is pronounced with the lower lip touching the upper teeth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.142.220 (talk) 09:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

What Spanish-speaking region are you from, or what dialect do you speak? In the dialects I have heard, vaca is pronounced with both lips and no teeth, while cabeza is pronounced with the lower lip touching the upper teeth. That is, the pronunciation doesn't depend on whether the letter is b or v, but on whether the letter is the first in the word or between vowels. Rod (A. Smith) 17:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

This B is be, & V is ve, it's proper they remain different but this is due a blurring of the letters in some regions especially the less educated ones. --72.38.211.144 (talk) 05:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

As a Spanish from Spain (and I'd say from an 'educated' region as it is Madrid, working for a university) I should say that nowhere in Spain, as far as I know, there is a dialect where b and v are pronounced different. Askateth [[1]]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.39.216.86 (talk) 20:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merger request

I just created this by moving out the text from Spanish language#Writing system. Spanish orthography redirects here. However, silly me, I didn't check beforehand that Spanish alphabet is already a full article, with content overlapping this one all over the place. I'm requesting a merge (into this one, since the title seems to cover more ground that "alphabet"). --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 12:54, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] IPA mess

Who did the original IPA on this page? It's a mess. I'm going in and fixing it. Should have it done today but if not don't revert without a reason for the insane number of diacriticals (which, even if they had much to do with the Spanish system, for simply giving the name of letters in a language with as many dialects as Spanish is rather overkill). Every single a is listed as ä, which whilst technically is centralised as realised in Spanish, it's not normal represented as such in IPA (just a normal a does fine). Ditto for e, which is always shown as being lowered, the s as laminal (which is simply s, except in Castilian where it is apico-dental). The t doesn't need a dental diacritic -- it's already dental, and since it doesn't contrast we don't need it mentioned. The g is only in certain dialects and in certain conditions realised as ɰ, but that doesn't happen in the word grande (in bueno, as güeno, it is). *sigh* —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Guifa (talk • contribs) 22:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Previous reforms

I've been doing some reading which includes excerpts of old documents about the time of the Conquest of Mexico and I'm seeing both systemtic and random differences to modern Spanish orthography. I cannot find anything on Wikipedia about anything but the current orthography. I would like to know if there were previous reforms, what those changed, or if Spanish orthography was unruly until recently. Any details greatly appreciated! — Hippietrail 03:10, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Examples of systematic differences:
  • á for modern a
  • muger for modern mujer
  • coraçon for modern corazón
  • dixo for modern dijo
  • ansí for modern así
  • mas for modern más
Examples of non-systematic differences:
  • é or i for modern y
  • io for modern yo
  • Letter v in many places taken by modern b
  • Letters u and v are interchangeable
  • Many missing modern acute accents

I'm cross-posting this question to Talk:Spanish language since this page seems to receive little traffic. — Hippietrail 16:48, 18 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Historical overview

The history of the spelling reforms of Spanish is ancient, rich, and interesting. The Spanish Royal Academy led the way in eliminating etymological fads from European languages. This topic deserves to be expanded.

[edit] Corta

Translate the Spanish word "corta" into English. (It says that "ve corta" is a name of v.) Georgia guy 01:55, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

short.--AleG 18:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] b and v

they almost sound the same

Mexican Americans are using the V sound more often due to English influence.

WRONG: ORGININALLY THE LETTERS BE & VE WERE DIFFENT!--72.38.211.144 (talk) 05:17, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I deleted the part that said that only Spanish and Puerto Ricans call b and v "be and uve". Although in Mexico or Argentina they call "be grande-chica" "be alta-corta", all Spanish speaking people (not only Spanish and Puerto Ricans!)recognize ve and uve as their legitimate names. Meaning that in formal context a Mexican or Argentinean will address those two letters as be and uve, respectively.

Correction the proper Spanish v is a v sound. Many educated speaker of Spanish know that. It only later that ones blurred to two to point almost in some area sound the same.
V: V. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.211.144 (talk) 02:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The v sound does not exist in the vast majority of Spanish dialects. FilipeS 18:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

"Some people even call them be labial and ve labiodental (dentilabial), not realizing that if this were true, there would be no need for such names." <- don't confuse language 'evolution' with people not realizing their 'mistakes'. Spanish (as in Spain) has different sounds for these, and labial/dentilabial would be accurate descriptions. Only because our dialects are now the most common doesn't mean people "doesn't realize". This also seems POV and insulting in some way. ("some people even call them this... haha, some people are just stupid..."). A more accurate explanation is that "this no longer seems to be the case" or "this doesn't seem to be the case in most countries". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.42.45.90 (talk) 12:22, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] rr vs r

I learned R as ere, without the trill, and RR as erre, with the trill. It isn't doble erre. 67.188.172.165 18:34, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Nope, letter R's name is erre, and RR is said to be doble erre. --Mariano(t/c) 13:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SI

Si is definitelly not a preposition. It literally translates to if, wich is a sentence conjunction. I'm reverting Blindman shady's edit. --Mariano(t/c) 12:40, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

If is both a conjunction and a preposition, now that I think about it.
If you die, I will be sad. If is a preposition with the object "you". That is regardless though, so I will leave it as is.
Blindman shady 18:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

You are mistaken. If/si is always a conjunction in conditional clauses. FilipeS 19:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ch and Ll

I understand that these two digraphs are no longer supposed to be treated as individual letters in collation, but I think this is different from not belonging to the alphabet. I think they should be included in the list of letters. FilipeS 17:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

agree--F3rn4nd0 (Roger - Out) 15:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Largely a combination of Latin and Arabic"?

Spanish orthography (the alphabet, punctuation and orthographic rules of the Spanish language) is largely derived from a combination of Latin and Arabic, as well as the influence of other Iberian languages.

This remark in the intro sounds absurd. If no one steps up to defend it, I think I will remove it. FilipeS 15:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a fallacy. Spanish alphabeth has no Arabic influence. Arabic has only influenced some of the Spanish vocabulary. Spanish uses the Latin Alphabet in addition with some letters borrowed from the Greek (e.g.k, w). And the ñ is a unique letter created by Spanish not Arabic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.182.10.214 (talk) 04:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I had already removed the remark from the intro. FilipeS 23:24, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] X and J

Regarding the use of x in words like México, RAE does recomend the use of x instead of j [2] (In Spanish). I have made a little change in the article. Cpt.Miller (talk) 12:59, 21 February 2008 (UTC)