Talk:Spanish irregular verbs

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Contents 1 Vowel-Alternating Verbs 2 Patterns in irregularities 3 Reason for irregularities 4 Definitions of the verbs conjugated here? 5 g verbs in the future tense

[edit] Vowel-Alternating Verbs

Most linguists do not classify vowel alternating verbs as "irregular". I believe thet should be in a separate article. 161.24.19.82 12:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree - the changes follow patterns that are as clear as the spelling changes to preserve the sound of the stem (c → qu before e/i, etc.), and as noted below those don't belong in this article. The section also seems to exclude e → i verbs (like pedir). 222.152.183.97 13:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

They're not the same. Spelling changes are absolutely regular. Some types of vowel alternation can be considered regular only if you add a conjugation to the paradigm (that is, -ar, -er -er^alt, -ir) or if you accept that some verbs should have more than two or more principal parts. Some alternations are completely unpredictable, or appear only in an odd couple of verbs. In any case, if "most linguists" don't agree with the content, we must show it with academic sources (WP:CITE, WP:RS, WP:V). —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 14:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Vowel alternating verbs are irregular in the sense that whether any particular verb undergoes the alternation is not predictable looking at the infinitive. Whereas (AFAIK) the spelling changes like c->qu are regular in the sense that any verb with a c or qu before the theme vowel will undergo the alternation.

However, User:222... makes a valid comment about the e->i verbs. That is, there are two cross-cutting classes here: e-->ie when stressed, and e->i before a non-front vowel. Some verbs (perder) undergo the first alternation, some (pedir) undergo just the second, and some (mentir) undergo both. (AFAIK, there are no -ir verbs that just undergo the first alternation, and only -ir verbs undergo the second--so of course the only verbs that undergo both are -ir verbs.) A theoretical study on this (somewhat dated theory, but the data is valid) is:

Harris, James W. 1978. Two Theories of Non-Automatic Morphophonological Alternations. Language 54:41-60.

Mcswell 17:40, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Patterns in irregularities

If I am not mistaken (and my grasp of Spanish is not complete), most irregularities are based on patterns, e.g. just as "buscar" becomes "busque", other "-car" verbs become "-que" verbs. The same can be applied to "-car", "-gar", etc. You've also got those patterns among stem-changing verbs. It would be far more informative to outline the patterns among irregular verbs along with the common irregulars that don't seem to follow a pattern. There aren't really that many irregular verbs (among those commonly used, anyway) that don't follow one of these patterns or one like them. Fearwig 00:31, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The common patterns are already outlined in the article (viz. the vowel-alternating verbs and the -g- verbs). However, buscar is completely regular; it only changes its orthography a bit: buscar - busque and rasgar - rasgue are exactly like gastar - gaste, only that the spellings *busce and *rasge would not be read as intended. The changes c → qu for /k/ and g → gu for /g/ are regular and predictable. Believe me, there are more than a few widely-used irregular verbs; tener, poner and caber in particular are confusing even for native children. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 01:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I think my understanding is failing me, then. Accept my apologies. Fearwig 07:09, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it might be worthwhile to mention them anyway, in a "Verbs with spelling changes" section. Currently they don't seem to be explained anywhere. — Ruakh_TALK 23:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

these verbs change to preserve the pronounciation. Buscar (hard c) subjunctive --> Busce would have a soft c, the que gives the hard sound. There are loads of examples (anything with a stem ending in j,g,c,qu) here is another: fingir 1st person finjo:

[edit] Reason for irregularities

The article on English irregular verbs has an explanation of how the Strong verbs started regular in old german but became irregular in old english. Something similar here would be nice.

[edit] Definitions of the verbs conjugated here?

It would be nice if someone could define the verbs conjugated in this section, as so complete beginners (such as me) could use this as a resource for irregular verbs

Thanks!

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.0.125.238 (talk • contribs) .

[edit] g verbs in the future tense

I have noticed that verbs with an inserted g before the o in the 1st person also have the spurious d repacing the last vowel in the future stem.

infinitive	1st p s	future stem
tener	tengo	tendr
venir	vengo	vendr
salir	salgo	saldr
poner	pongo	pondr

etc.

Is this a unbreakable rule, or just a coincidence in the examples I have seen.

Note that g verbs that dont follow the rules exactly dont work,

infinitive	1st p s	strict g rule	future stem
hacer	hago	hacgo	hic
traer	traigo	traego	traer
oir	oigo	ogo	oir