Talk:Spanish Gibraltarians

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This article was nominated for deletion on 12 December 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Gibraltar is a territory forming part of the Iberian Peninsular which has been subject to succesive invasions from the Phoenecians, Romans, Moors, Spanish and the British. Today its people use the term Gibraltarian to describe their identity. Its use in conenction with previous invaders is historically incorrect. Spanish implies a nationality and Gibraltarians are British. In the 2002 referendum we rejected any involvement of Spain in our affairs with over 99% of the populatation united in that opinion.

If this article is going to remain it should be truthful and reflect the situation and not describe the myth of a manufactured alternative population of Gibraltar in order to show support for Spanish oppression.

--Gibnews 08:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Im sorry but most of your acceptable criticisms are being taken into account and modified (e.g. John Galliano etc...) Calling Spaniards "invaders" is not acceptable. The name Spain, Hispania and the Spanish language and ethnicity predates the reconquest. Saying "incorrectly" is like a Spaniard editing the Gibraltar page saying that the current inhabitants of Gibraltar "incorrectly" call themselves Gibraltarian because the true inhabitants of Gibraltar are so and so.... that is POV. you must understand that.--Burgas00 16:08, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The history of Gibraltar is one of invasion and occupation, The Spanish are just one group that did that, however, as a concession to your sensibilities in putting your history as Conquistadors behind you we can remove that.

Surely you are not suggesting a Spaniard would edit a page saying that the true Gibraltarians were Spanish, I am shocked that you would defame them thus :)

However, having made the above small change, I trust the rest can be left alone so we can move on to creating informative pages rather than edit wars. The first visiting Spanish politicians from Madrid today had a bus tour round the rock accompanied by 200 press so you should see something of that in the media. I doubt they found any Spanish Gibraltarians hiding in the cave. --Gibnews 17:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The main problem with the whole moorish thing, is that it suggests that Spanish muslims were not Spanish because of their religion. "Moors" in Spain were as Spanish as the Christians or the Jews. That perspective is backward and erroneous and is confined to Francoist history books. If Gibraltar was "occupied" by the "Spanish", then so was the whole of what is now Andalusia. My problem with your edit is not really related to the present-day Gibraltar dispute. Nevertheless, one cannot call Andalusians "settlers" in what has historically always been part of Andalusia (if not Spain).--Burgas00 19:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Anyways, I think you will agree with my last edit.--Burgas00 19:28, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Lets try and use the talk page and be less radical in our edits, Gibnews. We can discuss differences paragragh by paragragh rather than rewriting the whole thing according to our own political point of view. --Burgas00 16:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

This is an example of part of your edit. A part from the fact that you have destroyed the sense and meaning of the article, I explain whats wrong with your diatribe:

In 2001, the Official Census records 326 Spaniards, 22,882 Gibraltarians, who are British Citizens, and 2627 'other British'. (This article is not about Spanish national residents in Gibraltar)

Restrictions on communications, general harassment and political hostility in the latter half of the 20th century between the Spanish state and the people of Gibraltar, has reinforced a sense of identity amongst Gibraltarians, and term 'Spanish Gibraltarian' is considered politically incorrect and offensive. (Blaming exclusively Spain for political hostility is POV. It is a valid and understandble POV, but it is not for wikipedia.) (Do all Gibraltarians find this term offensive? Have you asked them? Are they all ashamed of their Spanish origin, culture, heritage and language? saying "to some Gibraltarians" is sufficient)

Gibraltar enjoys a multi-racial and multi-cultural society where ethnic origins are not particularly important and people are judged on merit. (as opposed to Spain which is not multiracial, multicultural and where people are judged on their ethnic background rather than merit?)

--Burgas00 16:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the root of this problem with this article is really the word Spanish

Which has a number of meanings;

• An ethicity
• an inhabitant of a particular geographical area
• A political state.

There is similarly a problem with the word Gibraltarian because it is a modern term used to describe the people of Gibraltar from the time that they consider themselves seperate from the Spanish state. Something which Tito Benady explains very well.

Blaming exclusively Spain for political hostility is POV. No its a matter of fact. Remind me of the restrictions that Gibraltar or the UK has imposed on Spain ! Indeed we offered advanced rights to Spaniards to work in Gibraltar when Spain joined the EU/EEC or whatever it was called then. Fritz and Jules still needed to apply for a work permit, but José was OK.

What is particularly offensive is attempting to Hijack the term 'Gibraltarian' and apply it to the Spanish residents of Gibraltar in 1704, an example of revisionism.

I am not comparing Gibraltar to anywhere as an example of a multi racial society that works, just mentioning that racial origin is NOT important here and immaterial. However when it comes to the Spanish state, thats another matter.

Enough of this nonsense !

--Gibnews 09:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

If we are stuck with an article about Spanish Gibraltarians then it might as well be accurate. I've spent some time tidying up the result of user:vintagekits messing up the references, and have added some explanation and material about the play 'the straits'

I've also made the last paragraph more global so that there is no implicit comparison between gibraltar and the land of the inquisitor :)

--Gibnews 09:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok Im not purposefully engaging in an edit war with you. Can you first discuss the aspects you want to change one by one here and then edit the article? I will not revert any addition you make to the article without previous discussion unless it is excessively POV.--Burgas00 11:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

• This page needs to have the information provided verified. Beaumontproject 12:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Which info is not verified?--Burgas00 12:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Consensus version 2 References 3 Language 4 Maltese Gibraltarians

[edit] Consensus version

As I predicted, Gibnews and me have managed to reach some consensus over the content of this page. There may be some disagreements in the future, but Im sure we will work them out. Rather than this article, I would have preferred a new article on Gibraltar-Spanish relations which focuses on the human relations between the territory and its neighbour, rather than on the (rather boring and pointless) high-level bickering over sovereignty. Perhaps this can be a stub for a much better and more interesting article which focuses on the history of these relations. (e.g. during the civil war, the migrant workers, the effect of the blockade on both sides of the border, and the wider effect of political developments)... --Burgas00 15:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, I think we can come to an agreement on these things, because unlike some other disputes, locally we all get on pretty well and have very much the same outlook on life - which is the pursuit of happyness, good wine, tapas and friendship - we do not engage in revenge killings, and blowing up anonymous people visiting the market for 'a cause'. --Gibnews 16:00, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

I really don't see what user:vintagekits is getting at here, despite some lengthy discussions we have arrived at a neutral or rather largely acceptable text which has references to support its argument. He previously screwed up the reference system and the text he is reverting was not acceptable to Burgas00 surely the text is more important than the cosmetics of the references which are inin any event there and comprehensive ? --Gibnews 08:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no problem putting in an agreed text, by all means go ahead. However, the referencing system is now screwed up, I have sent you messeges on this already so you are aware of the problem. If you want to make edits to the article you must edit that in without ripping out the referencing system. Infact Burgass00 actaully agrees Vintagekits 10:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Well Vintage, can you fix the referencing system without changing the text? Im sorry but im going to have to revert again, since you have altered the content and structure of the text considerably.--Burgas00 11:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Well i cant be arsed with it anymore - just to say you were wrong to take it out in the first place! and it was you that took it out. You should have edited the article from that standpoint. DOnt expect anymore help from me! Vintagekits 14:38, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Language

You are wrong about people in La Linea speaking the same language as those in Gibraltar, its simply not true - and indeed on this occasion its the Spanish being insulted.

If you went there for a couple of hours you would quickly find the truth.

People in La Linea go through the Spanish school system and learn correct Spanish there. In Gibraltar all teaching is in English. Spanish is a foreign language and Llanito is picked up from parents and friends. The commonality is that both have an Andalucian pronounciation, but in La Linea and the neigbourhood they give you blank looks if you use llanito words or pronounciation. Indeed English is understood better.

Perhaps in the past there was more common ground, when Gibraltarians lived and were born in La Linea but the closure of the frontier polarised things bigtime.

I've seen 'references' in the media to all sorts of nonsense about Gibraltar, in this case whatever anyone says, Spain begins at the frontier the people of La Linea are Spanish, proud of it and speak their language correctly, not the linguistic nightmare of llanito.

--Gibnews 17:59, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Gibnews, have a look at the link I sent you again. It is a Linense site which does not concern Gib at all. They are simply people from la linea who have compiled a list of words "only" used in La Linea. What they have effectively created is a Spanish-Llanito dictionary.

Weather is dreadful here now by the way. Although I prefer it that way now Im writing my dissertation. If there is one thing I cant stand about the UK (apart from the fact that you cant find Lemon Fanta anywhere) is that there is no AC... --Burgas00 19:25, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I've all for cross border co-operation and understanding, but in the same way that there are people in Gibraltar fluent in Chinese, it would be wrong to say that 'people' generally use it here. Indeed at one time the infamous CIA factbood said that Russian was in common use in Gibraltar. The Linense's have their own identity, but its very clearly Spanish, indeed as the Gibraltarians speak to them in Spanish they are less motivated to learn English than people in ex-pat ghettos like Sotogrande or Torremolinos. --Gibnews 12:49, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

PS: my sympathies with the weather it was great for me at Easter :)

Although I acknowledge that various ‘Llanito’ words have pervaded La Linea, this does not illustrate that Llanito, which is unique to Gibraltar with respect to its overall attributes, is employed in La Linea. Yes, as I said, various Llanito words have pervaded La Linea, this is inevitable due to the locality of Gibraltar, but these are just the individual traits from the parlance spoken in La Linea – just as another town in Spain would have its respective traits. In La Linea, [the Andalusian dialect of] Spanish is spoken, is used officially, used in schools and is evidently not the same as Llanito. As we well know, Llanito encompasses code-switching (the closest comparison would be Spanglish) which is not present in the parlance of La Linea, this I can assure you. In layman’s terms this means that you would not obtain a very positive result by speaking to someone from La Linea using both English and Andaluz in the same sentence – unless of course they could understand English, but this is irrelevant. I could use some examples to help exemplify what I mean regarding the differences between the Spanish used in Llanito and the Spanish used in La Linea. In Spanish, the 2nd plural grammatical person (i.e. vosotros) is not used in Gibraltar even in a formal context (or if not, is rarely used) – in La Linea on the other hand I would assume that the tense would be second nature. There are hundreds of minor things which separate the Spanish spoken in La Linea with the Spanish spoken in Gibraltar, as part of Llanito if you so wish to call it. You have to bear in mind that the ‘Llanito’ spoken in Gibraltar is composed largely of Andaluz with English words thrown in, in all likelihood due to the fact that its Spanish translation is not instantly called to mind therefore the English equivalent is used in lieu. The best example I can give you of this (and is most frequented) would be the Spanish word for ‘switch’ – interruptor. If I was to say ‘Where is the switch?’ I would instinctively say ‘¿Dónde está el switch? And I am certain that most Gibraltarians would do to. Chris Buttigieg^talk 12:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Im moving this whole discussion to the Llanito page, since that is what we are discussing.

Im not convinced by your 2 examples, Chris. In Spanish, (Andalusian or not) one would say "Donde esta la luz" not "el interruptor", a word which is rarely, if ever, used. Im pretty sure, that "la luz" for the switch is said in Gibraltar aswell. As for "vostros", one of the distinguishing features of Andalusian Spanish is the absence of this word. As in Gibraltar, it is replaced by Ustedes in all contexts, sometimes in mixed contexts such as "Ustedes vais a Gibraltar".

I know that code switching is absent in La Linea, although I disagree that Code Switching is the distinguishing feature of Llanito. It is its rich lexical differences with Andalusian Spanish which make it "unique", not the practice of Spanglish by some of Gibraltar's inhabitants. This is why Im arguing that Llanito is also spoken in La Linea.

Chris, where are your Spanish friends from? They seem to speak (and understand) only a ridiculously formal form of Spanish which is giving you a wrong idea about the language... Burgas00

You are wrong on "el interruptor" its common enough in La Linea that even I know it and use it, maybe its a regional variation ? --Gibnews 17:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maltese Gibraltarians

How about creating an article on the Maltese community in Gibraltar and its history?--Burgas00 15:29, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Theres a good book on that, Twin Rocks, The Malta - Gibraltar connection by David Arrigo ISBN 99932-656-4-0 542p --Gibnews 17:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

That's an absolutely brilliant idea Burgas! I've got close Maltese family, so I'll be interested in the project. Count me in on it! I keep seeing that book at the airport and wanting to buy it but not having enough money to do so. I'll try and save now that you've recommended it. Gibmetal 77^talk 18:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree, that's a very good idea. How about something like "History of the Maltese in Gibraltar", similar to History of the Jews in Gibraltar. Just a suggestion. -- Chris B • talk 15:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. We could keep to a common standard regarding the name for all the "communities" in Gibraltar, though. I guess the Jewish, Maltese, Spanish and maybe Genoese communities are all interesting enough to be worthy of a relevant article. --Burgas00 19:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Although the Jewish community is distinct as are the Indians and the Moroccans there is no Spanish or Maltese 'community' as such distinguishable from the Gibraltarian majority. Catalan Bay may merit seperate treatment though and never sure when they will declare UDI. --Gibnews 19:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, thats why I put it in inverted commas. There is a history, a culture and a heritage though. Even a strong cultural input in modern day Gibraltarian culture (e.g. Maltese words in llanito etc..). Definitely worthy of an article in my opinion.

I also think this article (Spanish Gibraltarians) should be slowly transformed and eventually renamed into an equivalent format. Eventually all such articles would be a useful back up to the Culture of Gibraltar/History of Gibraltar articles.

--Burgas00 10:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

There certainly is plenty of material around. --Gibnews 16:44, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I definately think the title "History of the ___ in Gibraltar" is the way to go with this type of article, and as Burgas suggested try to keep it as a common standard.

Right, so... Where shall we begin? Gibmetal 77^talk 00:19, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I did a quick google search for sources, didnt find much. Although I did find that Corto Maltese was born in Malta to "La Niña de Gibraltar". :-) --Burgas00 09:24, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok I created the page and I found a source. Obviously it has to be rewritten. I just copy pasted the relevant parts of the article. History of the Maltese in Gibraltar

--Burgas00 11:52, 26 September 2007 (UTC)