Talk:Spain national football team
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[edit] "Crap"
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume the "They were 'to'(sic) crap to qualify" drivel on the 1974 WC qualifier is yet another nazi-provincial diatribe, doubtless the work of some 14 year old wikipedist.
I'll be changing it to "Did not qualify". --66.25.116.41 05:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Projected starting line-up
Where's Raul? ChrisTheDude 13:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Ask Aragones that question, he will say "No place for Raul, because he is bigger than me and I hate him" 83.100.155.229 (talk) 03:17, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Centralism
The delete of the autonomous flags is a demostration of the centralism (close to fascism) that unfortunately we can find usually in the current Spain.
Let me guess, you're either a Basque or a Catalan with your tales of Franco's oppression on your 'nation'. Until Cataluna or Pais Vasco become autonomous, only then will we start to use the respective flags.82.69.40.37
[edit] Stop vandalizing the team please
The rest of the squads don't have flags next to the players showing their village/city/region. It looks confusing. Please stop vandalizing the wikipedia to fulfill your political interests. You are accusing of fascism to all the wikipedists who created all the rest of the teams (yes there are different regions on other countries too).
[edit] Unitary Spain
I will not continue this absurd "flag war". However, your comentary is not correct because I didn't accuse all the wikipedist who created the rest of teams to be fascist. I only made a mention to the closer links between the fascism and the unitary vision of Spain. If you are not agree with this links, read a history book. Furthermore, I don't understand the reason why the plurinational reality of Spain supposes a problem for people like you. I remember you that the infamous Spanish empire ended on 1898.
[edit] Unitary Spain: Reply
Well I just saw you actually didn't stop with the flag war, just focused on a different place to try to sneak it in. You changed the nationality flag of F.C. Barcelona from Spain to Catalunya, which is plain ridiculous. Your comment above shows your hate against Spain, so maybe you are not the most indicated person to edit this entry. Please stop vandalizing the wikipedia, you can focus on ca.wikipedia.org and improve it, instead of altering this one for your political purposes.
[edit] Support for the Flags
Not to beat a dead horse, but the deletion of the flags does show a cultural insensitivity towards Spain as a whole. Yes other teams don't have it, but that's because the national identity in Spain is different from most other countries.
- I support the flags too. Spain is a multicultural country and persons having a unitary vision of it are related to right wing/religious catholic ideologies and in the extreme, fascism (Franco's 40 years regime has done much damage). On the contrary, by having the flags you will have a neutral/liberal POV which is prefered and wikipedia compatible.
- I don't support the flags. And seeing the comments here to me is obvious that comes from people who hate Spain and just want to mock the team (putting argentinian and brazilian flags where there is double nationality). Also one time the catalan flag had the caption "catalan countries", which is false and a political attempt. This is sport guys try to understand.
- I don't support the flags either. It's used as a political instrument by independentists. This is sport, no politics, thanks.
- I don't promote independentism nor want to be involved in politics but you have to realize that Spain is a multicultural country and that a culture genocide has occured in the XX th century that is in the process of being repaired, despite attempts from conservatives to avoid it. Spain is NOT a unitary centralized country as some want to make it appear, and before you say it I am not Catalan, nor Basque neither an independentist, I just defend plurality. MABarracus
- I don't support right wing views, in fact I usually vote for IU and PSOE, but you must understand that the imposing of such forementioned flags everywhere is related to independentism and terrorism which caused many deaths (more than 1 thousand) and keeps killing people nowadays. You should start worrying about bigger problems that we have in our society instead of your holy land flags which are more important than people lives for some people. So you must understand that even if I'm not from Madrid or other centralist community, it ofends me the imposing of such flags everywhere. Andreu.
- After that thinking relating multicultural views to terrorism you lost all kind of credibility. Thanks MABarracus
- Well all of you guys who related Franco and right wing views with this issue lost all credibility days ago. I just played the same game. You're welcome. Andreu
- So, what is bad about having flags? More than not having the flags, what offend us more is that some people want to delete them just for the hell of it. You didn't even mention a reason why you want them out other than independentism, which is laughable.
- The flags are confusing, they don't mean anything to the average english reader. Also, it's a different schema than the other world cup squads. They have been removed previously by no-spanish users: Philc 0780 who stated removed irrelavent flags, maybe they're relevant to the players, but not to the national team (on his user page I see he is English, so probably not a Franco supporter). Then the user 172.188.211.38 (the IP is american) removed them again stating: Flags next to players are confusing and different schema from the rest of squads.. Also the flags where put on the first place by Icemanofbarcelona101, if you go to his user page, you will see that he has been accused many times of vandalism. The users inserting the flags haven't done any contributions to the wikipedia, they are focused on the flags, that makes me think is the same user with many different accounts. It also makes me think they don't want to improve the wikipedia, just want to use it as propaganda.
- The users removing the flags have done many contributions to the wikipedia, they seem to be genuine users. So these are my reasons to vote to remove the flags, as you can see they are a no-political reason. Now please tell me your reason to put the flags (a reason to improve the wikipedia and no-political reason). Miguel.
- If I "hated Spain" as someone implied why would I care so much about the multiple identities that are a large part of the Spanish culture? And why would I support the Spanish national team in the first place? None of the arguments against the flags are very convincing, "the other teams don't do it" isn't enough. Xath 04:47, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
- I will not post anymore since it's useless to argue with individuals that would like to command and make their interlocutors to shut up, as 'others' did in the past. Just a note for non Spanish users who don't know the situation in the country: traditionally ruling class of right wingers, pan-hispanics and Catholicists (winning party of Civil War) are getting upset since in recent times liberals gropus, not religious, regionalists/nationalists (Catalonian, Basques...) and moderate left groups are rising in influence and dismantling the stablished system of united, conservative and Catholic Spain they had fabricated and maintained. Though that's the real situation, they will deny it as always. And one last thing, mixing politics with soccer is bad, but inevitable in this country. Peace. MABarracus
- Is it true that is not good to merge politics with sports, but take into accounte that the name of the spanish team "Spain National Team" is a political topic because it denies the plurinational reality of Spain. Otherwise, I'm agree with you that is useless to argue with individuals that consider vandalism any sentence which they are not agree. Mcasas
- I will not post anymore since it's useless to argue with individuals that would like to command and make their interlocutors to shut up, as 'others' did in the past. Just a note for non Spanish users who don't know the situation in the country: traditionally ruling class of right wingers, pan-hispanics and Catholicists (winning party of Civil War) are getting upset since in recent times liberals gropus, not religious, regionalists/nationalists (Catalonian, Basques...) and moderate left groups are rising in influence and dismantling the stablished system of united, conservative and Catholic Spain they had fabricated and maintained. Though that's the real situation, they will deny it as always. And one last thing, mixing politics with soccer is bad, but inevitable in this country. Peace. MABarracus
- If I "hated Spain" as someone implied why would I care so much about the multiple identities that are a large part of the Spanish culture? And why would I support the Spanish national team in the first place? None of the arguments against the flags are very convincing, "the other teams don't do it" isn't enough. Xath 04:47, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
- So, what is bad about having flags? More than not having the flags, what offend us more is that some people want to delete them just for the hell of it. You didn't even mention a reason why you want them out other than independentism, which is laughable.
- Well all of you guys who related Franco and right wing views with this issue lost all credibility days ago. I just played the same game. You're welcome. Andreu
- After that thinking relating multicultural views to terrorism you lost all kind of credibility. Thanks MABarracus
- I don't support right wing views, in fact I usually vote for IU and PSOE, but you must understand that the imposing of such forementioned flags everywhere is related to independentism and terrorism which caused many deaths (more than 1 thousand) and keeps killing people nowadays. You should start worrying about bigger problems that we have in our society instead of your holy land flags which are more important than people lives for some people. So you must understand that even if I'm not from Madrid or other centralist community, it ofends me the imposing of such flags everywhere. Andreu.
- I don't promote independentism nor want to be involved in politics but you have to realize that Spain is a multicultural country and that a culture genocide has occured in the XX th century that is in the process of being repaired, despite attempts from conservatives to avoid it. Spain is NOT a unitary centralized country as some want to make it appear, and before you say it I am not Catalan, nor Basque neither an independentist, I just defend plurality. MABarracus
- I don't support the flags either. It's used as a political instrument by independentists. This is sport, no politics, thanks.
- I don't support the flags. And seeing the comments here to me is obvious that comes from people who hate Spain and just want to mock the team (putting argentinian and brazilian flags where there is double nationality). Also one time the catalan flag had the caption "catalan countries", which is false and a political attempt. This is sport guys try to understand.
[edit] Flags added
I added the flags again because is it clear that a in this discussion page there are more people agree with the flags (3) than against it (1). In order to respect the neutral pont of view of wikipedia I ask you Wikifrikiuser in order to find and agreement. But I remeber you two things: First, the showing of autonomous flags can not be considered vandalism because the majority of interventions are agree with this showing. Second, if you don't try to find an agreement with this topic, the deletion of flags can be considered vandalism because most of the users are agree with the showing.
- To me it's not clear that most people agree with the flags as you say. Two different people removed the flags before me, so I count them, and now there is another comment agreeing with me, so there are 4 against 3. Even if this was not the case, if you want to change the scheme that the rest of the other squads use, we will need a votation, a proper votation, and leave it some time to finish. Finally, accusing of fascism to other wikipedians goes against the pilars of the wikipedia (read the rules), and all the comments supporting the flags did this. I will report this whole discussion to administrators if there is a problem. So I consider introducing the flags which is confusing and different to all the rest of the squads vandalism. Please stop doing so. Wikifrikiuser 18:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Agreement needed
Acording to you, Wikifrikiuser, is vandalism all what you don't like. In any case, is it clear that the current version of the page doesn't respect the neutral point of view. Report the whole discussion to the administrators, if you want. However is et clear that is necessary an agreement that respects your centralist point of view and my federalist point of view. Mcasas
- This is what it has to be done: Wikipedia:Resolving_disputes. Anyway to me a neutral point of view could be an external (not spanish) user, and foreign users have repeatedly deleted the flags because they don't mean anything to them. Such flags make sense on the spanish wikipedia, but they don't make any sense on the english wikipedia. That's the reason why I delete them, not because I'm centralist or fascist or Franco supporter, or religious, or other wonderful things that have been said here. When people lack of reasons to argue is when they start insulting, and that's what happened here. This entry is about a sport, football, and the national team for that sport. Modifications to reflect politic status or desires don't belong here. Also I would like to point that I used the term Vandalism because these modifications started by the user Icemanofbarcelona101, and as you can see on his talk page, has been accused repeatedly of Vandalism. In fact he has been creating new accounts as you can read from that page, and probably some of the replies on this talk page are from him (with a new account). Anyway I would like to see the opinion of a non spanish wikipedia user about this.Wikifrikiuser 22:40, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
-
- The thing is...
- Flags out: neutral to non Spanish viewers because flags don't mean anything to them, BUT NOT neutral to a large part of Spanish viewers because it shows a false, fabricated unicultural vision of Spain, the unitary vision of Spain is a right wing view and a clear residue of Franco's cultural genocide between 1939 and 1975, as much as Wikifrikiuser tries to obviate it.
- Flags in: it represents a point of view that will not mind non Spanish users as they don't know what they are, and it represents a neutral and real multicultural point of view for Spanish viewers, not a biased and fabricated one as what some people here are trying to impose.
- Conclusion: Flags in shouldn't offend anyone because it's the real thing, flags out offend as it's a lack of respect and authoritarism for supressing the reality MABarracus
- I'm agree with MABarracus, the autonomous flags respect the wikipedia's neutral point of view and only extrem right people could be offended by it. In conclusion, I propose to show the flags again. Mcasas
- It's funny how you see the things black or white: Flags out = false...fabricated...unicultural...unitary...right wing...Franco...genocide and Flags in = neutral..real..multicultural..real thing. Some of us here are trying to show common sense reasons to put or delete the flags, your childish reasons take us nowhere. Anyway if you want to go that path... The only people who can be affected by the removing of the flags are the independentist people, who account to around 30% of Catalonia and 50% of Basque Country. The populations are 7 million and 2 million, OK even if 100% of the whole regions were independentists, that would be 9 million people, the population of Spain is 44 million, so I think that the people affected by the removal of the flags are a minority. Then of course we have the 6 thousand millions (6 billions for americans) of people who don't care about your flags, so again you are a ridiculous minority. By the way, I checked the spanish wikipedia, and noone put the flags on the national team there, I wonder why... (it makes much more sense there than here). Anyway from the beginning I tried to stay away from politics, and the reasons for deleting the flags are not political as we have explained before (they don't mean anything and are confusing). Also someone pointed out up in this page that mainly the people inserting the flags have the vandal profile (newly created users without any other contributions to the wikipedia) which is highly suspicious. Wikifrikiuser 19:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Wikifrikiuser, you guys are showing childish reasons, this is not the way to discuss the issue. You should read about Godwin's Law (it can be applied in Spain changing Hitler for Franco). Your "sensitivities" are shared only by a very small amount of people in Spain, you are in fact, a minority. This is all inspired by political purposes, as a Catalan I see this everyday and I'm sick of it. Please keep separated politics and sports (I also hate when they mix Barça with politics). So my vote goes to delete the flags. And to make it clear I'm the farthest thing from right wing, I'm just using common sense. Andreu
- What harm do the flags do exactly? You might be sick of Catalan seperatism but not including the flags offends more people than including them does. The amount of people in Spain with regional identities is growing everyday, it's not about destroying Spain, it's about restoring cultural identities that were supressed by years of Castillian dominance. These multiple identities are what make modern Spain so great, and ignoring them just so this article conforms to others like it is not enough of a reason. Bring back the flags. Xath 04:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
- I give up, I have argued with fachas before and it leads nowhere. Have fun. MABarracus
- (Replying to Xath). It's nice to see for the first time a comment without insults coming from you guys. To be honest, the first time I saw the flags, I thought they were cool (I'm also from a historic nationality). But, then I saw that some english reader had deleted them. And then I realized there was a problem with Senna and Pernía (brazilian and argentinian flags): first they have double nationality, so we should show both flags, in fact only the spanish one because it's their chosen nationality for playing matches (you can only choose one). But, if we are using autonomous communities flags, what do we do then? The way the flags were before, were mixing real countries (Argentina and Brazil) with the communities, this for a foreign reader is very confusing. Second, I realized the flags were used by independentists to show "Catalan countries" when you passed the mouse over the flag. And finally, on the historic logs I saw that the users putting the flags back on had the vandal profile. So, even if I liked the flags the first time I saw them, I decided that it was better for the wikipedia to remove them. Then all the accusations of fascism, etc. came. As a final point, being an antifacha myself, with many relatives killed by Franco, I found the comments highly offensive.Wikifrikiuser 08:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- I asked you several days ago, Wikifrikiuser, in order to find and agreement. Your only answer has been "You are insulting me". I repeat that I only tried to show the historical links between Spanish centralism and left-wing francoist. These links are showed in all the historical books you can read. I don't say that you are a Francoist because we are not discussing about your ideology. I repeat you: How can we find a neutral point of view? Mcasas
- (Replying to Xath). It's nice to see for the first time a comment without insults coming from you guys. To be honest, the first time I saw the flags, I thought they were cool (I'm also from a historic nationality). But, then I saw that some english reader had deleted them. And then I realized there was a problem with Senna and Pernía (brazilian and argentinian flags): first they have double nationality, so we should show both flags, in fact only the spanish one because it's their chosen nationality for playing matches (you can only choose one). But, if we are using autonomous communities flags, what do we do then? The way the flags were before, were mixing real countries (Argentina and Brazil) with the communities, this for a foreign reader is very confusing. Second, I realized the flags were used by independentists to show "Catalan countries" when you passed the mouse over the flag. And finally, on the historic logs I saw that the users putting the flags back on had the vandal profile. So, even if I liked the flags the first time I saw them, I decided that it was better for the wikipedia to remove them. Then all the accusations of fascism, etc. came. As a final point, being an antifacha myself, with many relatives killed by Franco, I found the comments highly offensive.Wikifrikiuser 08:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- I give up, I have argued with fachas before and it leads nowhere. Have fun. MABarracus
- What harm do the flags do exactly? You might be sick of Catalan seperatism but not including the flags offends more people than including them does. The amount of people in Spain with regional identities is growing everyday, it's not about destroying Spain, it's about restoring cultural identities that were supressed by years of Castillian dominance. These multiple identities are what make modern Spain so great, and ignoring them just so this article conforms to others like it is not enough of a reason. Bring back the flags. Xath 04:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Wikifrikiuser, you guys are showing childish reasons, this is not the way to discuss the issue. You should read about Godwin's Law (it can be applied in Spain changing Hitler for Franco). Your "sensitivities" are shared only by a very small amount of people in Spain, you are in fact, a minority. This is all inspired by political purposes, as a Catalan I see this everyday and I'm sick of it. Please keep separated politics and sports (I also hate when they mix Barça with politics). So my vote goes to delete the flags. And to make it clear I'm the farthest thing from right wing, I'm just using common sense. Andreu
- It's funny how you see the things black or white: Flags out = false...fabricated...unicultural...unitary...right wing...Franco...genocide and Flags in = neutral..real..multicultural..real thing. Some of us here are trying to show common sense reasons to put or delete the flags, your childish reasons take us nowhere. Anyway if you want to go that path... The only people who can be affected by the removing of the flags are the independentist people, who account to around 30% of Catalonia and 50% of Basque Country. The populations are 7 million and 2 million, OK even if 100% of the whole regions were independentists, that would be 9 million people, the population of Spain is 44 million, so I think that the people affected by the removal of the flags are a minority. Then of course we have the 6 thousand millions (6 billions for americans) of people who don't care about your flags, so again you are a ridiculous minority. By the way, I checked the spanish wikipedia, and noone put the flags on the national team there, I wonder why... (it makes much more sense there than here). Anyway from the beginning I tried to stay away from politics, and the reasons for deleting the flags are not political as we have explained before (they don't mean anything and are confusing). Also someone pointed out up in this page that mainly the people inserting the flags have the vandal profile (newly created users without any other contributions to the wikipedia) which is highly suspicious. Wikifrikiuser 19:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'm agree with MABarracus, the autonomous flags respect the wikipedia's neutral point of view and only extrem right people could be offended by it. In conclusion, I propose to show the flags again. Mcasas
-
[edit] want raul comes back with spain national team
hello,im Nick from Malaysia.I have a questions,why the Spain National team not take Raul.He is very good player.He also do well in the La Liga.I hope Raul comes back again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.48.64.115 (talk) 04:53, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Top Spain goalscorers
David Villa is mentioned twice on the list (15 and 16 goals). Someone should find the correct amount of goals and fix this. The list should also be updated. Now it says the stats are dated to May 31. -- 80.221.34.91 (talk) 21:41, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
