Talk:Soviet War Memorial (Tiergarten)

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I hope my additions (which are mostly from memory) are correct, feel free to edit out errors. It would be good if someone could provide a translation of the inscription. Andreas 14:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I am getting it translated. Adam 01:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I am told it means: "Eternal glory to the heroes who fell in battle with the German fascist occupiers for the freedom and independence of the Soviet Union." Adam 02:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks - I added that to the description. Andreas 12:41, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Soviet Guards

The former text reference stated that Soviet guards were routing to and from the memorial "using a side-door of the Brandenburg Gate to get into the western sector at the time of changing of the Guard."

This is incorrect. The memorial stands in Tiergarten district, but Brandenburg Gate stands entirely in the area of Mitte district, which belonged to the Soviet sector. The actual district border which later became first, part the sector border, later, the state border between West-Berlin and the GDR, run about 50 meters westwards from the Gate (in an arched path).

When the sector borders were closed (Berlin Wall), this area was seamlessly closed.The whole building of the Brandenburg Gate was surrounded by the heavily patrolled East German border strip and relatively far (25-50 meters) from the Wall. The Gate, as a grotesque contrast to its name, remained a restricted area and closed, uncrossable in any way, until the fall of the Berlin Wall. After the 13th August, 1961, it was not a crossing point anymore. There was absolutely no crossing, not even for allied military personnel.

There was no point to use any part of the Gate because one would just arrive into the same East German border area, without even approaching the actual border (which lied on the other side of the Wall). There were only a few service/repair "doors" in the Wall (small, slideable concrete panels actually) used by East German border troops to climb out and back (not walk through) to the Western side of the Wall, in order to make repair works. The idea as described by the quoted text is presumably fictional.

The Wall itself stood on East German soil (within the district boundaries of Mitte) and this part of it run totally closed from the river Spree to the next crossing point, Checkpoint Charlie, at the intersection of Zimmerstrasse/Friedrichstrasse.

Soviet military guard units for the memorial used Checkpint Charlie to enter the Western sectors (American then British), following a strict route, without any stopping, in armored patrol cars. Allied forces could move freely in each others' sectors but they were obliged to check in at allied checkpoints when crossing the sector borders, especially between the Soviet and the Western ones. The area of the memorial was fenced by barbed wire to prevent Soviet guards from defecting.

Therefore, the referred part has been edited out from the article.

[edit] Red Army

I believe at the time of the battle the VVS was not an independent arm, it was under control of the Red Army (like the USAAF was at the time). If that is wrong then I will correct the link. I don't think many members of the Soviet navy were involved. :-) Andreas 16:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Tomb of the Unknown Rapist"

The monument has often been referred to as the Grabmal des unbekannten Vergewaltigers and varians thereof in reference to the behavior of the Red Army. [1] I'm just wondering whether it would be a good idea to mention this.  ProhibitOnions  (T) 16:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I have heard that quib too. Not sure if it qualifies under Wikipedia guidelines (original research and all that), and I am sure a lot of people would get very upset if it got entered. Andreas 16:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The Telegraph article cited doesn't say which Soviet memorial is called "Tomb of the Unknown Rapist." It may be a reference to the Treptower Park memorial, which is also a cemetery. No-one is buried at the Tiergarten memorial. Adam 00:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I've always heard it in reference to the Tiergarten one (as I live in Berlin, I did not learn this from the Telegraph, I merely provided the link as an example). I suppose it doesn't matter that no one is buried there, as the phrase is, after all, a joke. I suppose it's possible that the term may have first arisen with the Treptower Park memorial, but as saying this in East Berlin would land you in prison, but would not in West Berlin, the term might have come to mean the Tiergarten one. The Soviet guards at the memorial and the Soviet processions to it from behind the Wall weren't greeted terribly warmly by West Berliners.  ProhibitOnions  (T) 00:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

That is all fair comment, but here, here and here are sources which refer specifically to East Berlin or Treptower Park. I can't find a reference which links specifically to Tiergarten. ("Grabmal des unbekannten Vergewaltigers" gets no Google hits at all). PS what have you got against onions? Adam 01:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I guess both memorials must have gone by that name. By the way, I read that there are soviet soldier graves in the background of the memorial, i.e. not under the statue, but either in the monument behind, or in th park behind that. (My German is a bit rusty, so I'm not quite sure what was meant by background", any idea how many they are?--Stor stark7 Talk 19:57, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] how is it still standing?

The article does not explain one thing. How is it possible that this statue is still standing? It is a symbol of enemy and oppressor that forced half of the country under dictatorship for decades. Red army also raped, robbed and killed civilians like berserk barbarians while they destroyed this city. After nazis were defeated many nazi symbols were destroyed, which was good. Now communism is gone but there are still this kinds of monuments hailing to communist dictatorship and crimes - which is extremely weird because Germany is declared democratic country. They could just demolish this temple of horror, like liberated people usually does in such circumstances, but they do not. Tell me why and also add that to the article. 193.167.40.108 15:10, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

If you can find sources in mainstream media or books that discuss that issue then sure, it can be added to the article, but we can't really do original speculation ourselves. I would be curious myself though whether it's been an issue in Germany; it has been an issue in nearby Latvia and Estonia (Estonia, for example relocated one Soviet war memorial amidst some controversy). --Delirium 00:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Germany agreed with the USSR at reunification that it would take care of Soviet war graves and memorials (see Two Plus Four Agreement). Even in cases where this does not apply, many communist-era memorials are still standing and are maintained out of historic interest (such as that of Ernst Thälmann in Prenzlauer Berg). ProhibitOnions (T) 15:40, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
It is also a practice in other Central European countries which were fighting against the former Soviet Union. For example, in the Hungarian capitol, Budapest, a Soviet Memorial is still standing in the very heart of the city, just in front of the local U.S. Embassy. Though local rightwing extremists repeatedly suggest its removal, the memorial is maintained wisely according to bilateral agreements with Russia which in exchange maintains Hungarian war memorials and military cemeteries located there. Every coin has two faces. --BorderTourist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.56.93.242 (talk) 13:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Amazing how quickly people forget the great sacrifice the Soviet Union made to ensure freedoms enjoyed around the world. Is this merely a sign of the times or surreptitious moves made by right-wing forces to undermine the Soviet war effort? Shakes head sadly... 81.77.73.24 (talk) 00:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)--81.77.73.24 (talk) 00:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Resolution to the edit warring

Locally it is, or has until recent times been, known as: "tomb of the unknown rapist" or "tomb of the unknown plunderer".[1]

User:Beatle Fab Four, please state your concerns[2], preferably after reviewing the discussion at Talk:Soviet War Memorial (Treptower Park) --Stor stark7 Speak 22:02, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

It's not a game, Stor stark7. It's very serious. And you know why I and other editors corrected the article. Once again, see discussion on the Treptower Park. Beatle Fab Four (talk) 22:11, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The other editor simply pointed to your edit in an unresolved conflict. He triggered way to quick, and his edit was unfounded. As far as I can see my reply is the last thing that's written there (Treptower Park). If you or other editors have any arguments for why the alternative name should not be included in this (Tiergarten) article, then please present them here in an orderly fashion, thank you.--Stor stark7 Speak 05:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)