Talk:Sovereign Military Order of Malta

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Contents 1 Armigerous 2 Archive discussion 3 Questions 4 Taken from Talk:Sovereign Military Order of Malta 5 Merge summary 6 International status 7 The word "Langue" 8 Order of Knights of the Hospital of St. Lazarus of Jerusalem 9 Maltese Falcon 10 Timeline issue 11 Confusion 12 "Catholic states" 13 Proposed Merger 14 Anglicising Latin name 15 Order of St John of Jerusalem 16 Order of Malta 17 Caliph chasm 18 Early History 19 Knights of Malta 20 Sovereignity 21 Too many different sects 22 Years and general editing 23 Delisted GA 24 Recent Additions 25 How big were those Christian Crosses? 26 Split off list? 27 Reorganization needed 28 Yet Another Proposed Merger 29 New Picture 30 Allliance of Chivalry of Hospitallers of Sant John, etc 31 Requested move 31.1 Survey 31.1.1 Survey - in support of the move 31.1.2 Survey - in opposition to the move 31.2 Discussion 32 official language 33 Sovereign Military Order of Malta#Mimic Orders 34 Possible Navigation Template 35 What's the population? 36 Does it claim Maltese territory? 37 Notables? 38 World War 2

[edit] Armigerous

The article states that new Knights of Malta are "expected" to become armigerous. Please document or cite this expectation; expected by whom? What rule? They are certainly allowed to become armigerous, and the order provides for armorial addiaments--but there are many knights, particularly in the category of magistral grace, who are not armigerous.

I would anticipate the "are expected" being changed to "may" if a source is not cited.

167.80.244.204 17:22, 9 May 2007 (UTC)chevalier3

[edit] Archive discussion

• /Archive 1 (was an independent talk page when we had two versions of the same article)

[edit] Questions

Are not they also known as 'Johanites'. Harry Potter

No. The Johanniters (not correct spelling) are members of a different chivalric order, the Brandenburg Bailiwick of the Knights' Order of the Hospital of St John in Jerusalem aka Knights of St. John in Germany. Please see Johanniter. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 167.80.244.204 (talk) 17:19, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

Regarding external links see Talk:Sovereign Military Order of Malta. There might also be a case to merge Sovereign Military Order of Malta into this one. -- Mic 10:04, Oct 6, 2003 (UTC)

Clearly these should be merged, perhaps with additional remarks concerning all that fuss about the Nine Declatory Resolutions what with the death of de St croix and all. Just as the French Capitular Commission vanishes from history, the English Capitular Commission appears with eventual re-establishment of "The Order of St. John of Jerusalem in England".Harry Potter 00:07, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)

As the Knights Hospitaller tradition is somewhat wider than the more recent Sovereign Military Order of Malta the page should remain separate. For example there is the JohanniterOrder of Prussia which emerged as a separate organisation following the Reformation, and the creation of another non-Roman tradition in the British Order supported by Queen Victoria. Following a Decree from Emperor Alexander I of Russia, a distinct Russian tradition was created. - The Rev'd Dr Michael Foster

[edit] Taken from Talk:Sovereign Military Order of Malta

I'll put it here since I merged that page to this one.Przepla 23:56, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The official link was pointing to one, out of the four local chapters in the United states. Replaced it with the link to the official site of the order.

• http://www.orderofmalta.org/index.asp?idlingua=5 (which is the English version of the page). - Official site
• http://www.smom.org - Local chapter

Hmm, oughtn't this page be merged with Knights Hospitaller? john 23:09, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Merge summary

I merged this article with Sovereign Military Order of Malta. Since more pages linked here than Sovereign Military Order of Malta, I decided that this page is to stay. I also changed some sections into subsections. I wrote new paragraph about government of the Order basing on their WebPage FAQ. I tried to changed what needed as to not constitute copyvio, but I might miss something. I fixed all links to point here (almost, as Micronation is protected).Przepla 23:53, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] International status

I cannot see what is "nebulous" there. That an area of land is extraterritorial does not mean that it is not a constituent part of the territory of Italy (in this case), it just means that Italy cannot exercise its jurisdiction there, because it is hindered to do so by international law.

This is the same status that an embassy has.

If I hear no objections here, I will rewrite that paragraph.

P.S.: What is interesting about the order is that it once _was_ a state but stopped to do so when it lost its territory (but did not stop to be a subject of international law).

JensMueller 09:58, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The part about the coins and stamps is outdated; there are 2004 coins on the Order's web site.

[edit] The word "Langue"

The individual nation branches of the order were called Langues from the French "tongue". This is what I have read in one or two articles, but there is, I believe, another meaning of the French word, namely "strip of land". I think the Order term may derive from this being some reference to the holding of land by the Knights.

Robert Hill

No, it was based on the geographic/cultureal/linguistic origin of the knights. Cosal 23:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Order of Knights of the Hospital of St. Lazarus of Jerusalem

Any information about the Order of St. Lazarus of Jerusalem?

• http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-46,GGLD:en&q=%22lazarus+of+jerusalem%22

[edit] Maltese Falcon

Should "Maltese falcon" in the article really link to the movie? Is there another meaning of the word "falcon" I'm not aware of, e.g. it's the name of a coin in Malta? Or did the Knights really tithe one falcon a year?

Actually, I do not find real informations about any Maltese falcon (the statue)... except in Hammet book ! Are you really sure it is not a book plot, rather than a true fact ??? I think we should remove :

"Their annual fee for the island was a single Maltese falcon, which they had to give annually on All Souls Day to the Viceroy, who acted as the King's representative."

--WithNuts 17:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline issue

I'm not an expert at all on the subject of knights, but a friend of mine (not a Wikipedian) pointed out that there seems to be an issue with the "loss of Malta" section. Specifically (emphasis mine):

... rather than Grand Masters in the period 1805 to 1879, when Pope Leo XIII restored a Grand Master to the Order. This signalled the revival of the Order's fortunes as a humanitarian and ceremonial organization.

followed immediately by:

In 1834, the revived Order ...

Now, there may be a perfectly logical reason for this, but I thought I'd just point this out so someone who knows up from down on this subject can fix it or tell me to shut my proverbial hole. --Jemiller226 04:37, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion

The conflation of the historical Knights of Malta and the present day organisation is confusing, even deliberately misleading. See Fort St Angelo where both the historical organisation and the present incarnation are both referred to, but resolve to the same page since I cannot refer into the presently too long article.

I would prefer that the original seperation be restored, or better an evan a smaller division created with an overall article to link them togeather, since the organisation that fell to Napolion was substantially different to that which was kicked out of Rhodes, or which fought off the Turks. And the section on the Grand Masters of the order would be better as a seperate article, so that it can be referred to directly, rather than being a footnote on a rambling article that tries to be all things to all men. I'm working on a series of articles on the fortifications of Malta, and will probably want to expand the entries on the Grand Masters of the order as a consiquence. The list of Grand Masters is a reasonable start on this. --Shoka 23:30, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I fixed it with a section link. It's still ugly though. --Shoka 00:05, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Catholic states"

SMOM has formal diplomatic relations with 93 states (many of which are non-Catholic)

The preceding phrase is found in the article, in the section describing the Order's international status. However, the terminology used is not accurate, as there exists no such thing as a "Catholic state," definitely not since Vatican II in the 1960s (even if some Catholic theologians had once held that there ought to be [1]). I suspect the writer was trying to express the notion of a traditionally Catholic country, but this must be clarified (See Roman Catholic Church#Worldwide distribution). --Dpr 05:41, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

The above phrase is quoted from the SMOM's official website [2]. I think the SMOM is trying to describe those states with majority Catholic population as "Catholic states" instead of using the term to refer to those with Catholic as state religion. DD Ting 10:41, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. Do you think it should be clarified, however? Thanks. --Dpr 02:50, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

It depends on how you define "Catholic states". For me, I'd prefer maintaining status quo. DD Ting 11:55, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

"Catholic states", I propose, is an undefined term. They do not exist. The term is not widely used and should not be used here--it would be an idiosyncracy. Nonetheless, it's worthwhile to examine the following: State religion#Roman Catholic...there are 11 or so states which do hold Catholicism to be the state religion. Nonetheless "Catholic state" is still an irregular term. --Dpr 02:48, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Why don't we say "many of which are not predominantly Catholic"? john k 03:22, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Merger

The two new articles should not be merged with this one. They are written by representatives of Don Grady, and put forward fraudulent text from a blatantly self styled order. These two articles should be deleted rather than merged into this one.

[edit] Anglicising Latin name

The Latin name is the official name of the order, while the 'anglicised' version is the name of one of the protestant orders related to the original order. The normal English name is the one used in the title of the article - hence I reversed here. Refdoc 09:15, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Order of St John of Jerusalem

Hello Refdoc, I noticed your revert of my anglicization of the latin in Knights hospitaller. The reason I anglicized "ordo militae etc" is because there is a bogus order run by a fake german prince that uses the latin name. SMOM uses the latin translation of "SMOM" and this isn't it. Since nobody officially uses this version of the latin name besides the bogus order, I thought I should anglicize it to the more common usage which also includes the legitimate "Johannitter" orders in Germany, Sweden and the Netherlands. I will be changing the latin back to english shortly. Ordrestjean 21:22, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Additionally, the name of the British order is "Most Venerable Order of St John of the Hospital of Jerusalem, of the British Realm".

[edit] Order of Malta

Why is this entry not named after the shortened name that the organization uses itself: the Order of Malta. Shortened from the proper name (in English) Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta. [[3]]. Why would we disregard Wiki policiy here?. DocendoDiscimus 22:43, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Because this order covers all the periods of history, not just the years on Malta (which were the minority). Ordrestjean 02:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Caliph chasm

There is something wrong with the following sentance from the article:

In 1023, merchants from Amalfi and Salerno in Italy were given permission by the Caliph Haroun el Raschid of Egypt to rebuild the hospice in Jerusalem.

Fatimid dynasty, the egyptian caliphs of the time, has no such fellow and Harun al-Rashid was much earlier. Anyone know the actual details? MeltBanana 16:30, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Early History

Where the article read, "The hospice ... took in Christian pilgrims traveling to visit the birthplace of Jesus," I substituted "traveling to visit the site of the crucifixion of Jesus." I suppose many Christian pilgrims might have traveled on to Bethlehem as well, but Golgatha was the chief reason for traveling to the Holy Land, and certainly the reason for going to Jerusalem. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. Joel Bastedo 06:00, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually Christian pilgrims usually took in a 'grand tour' of as many holy sites as they could visit. It was a very difficult and expensive trip, so they tended to make the most of it. Ordrestjean 02:08, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Knights of Malta

Spain did not even exist in the year 1565. The relief arrived from the Ancient Reign of Aragon--Paco ✉ 07:55, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

---

"Most of the cities were destroyed... "This statement is unclear to me as firstly there were no cities to speak of as such, and as far as I can remember the only villages/towns of any significance/size at that time were Mdina which was left untouched and Birgu which was admittedly bombarded very heavily. Senglea was only a recently fortified peninsula with practically no inhabitants, and Valletta ofcourse didn' exist yet. All other places with the possible excpetion of Rabat were small villages at the time.192.39.215.77 14:26, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sovereignity

An organization is either sovereign or not. There's no dispute there! You cannot just claim sovereignity, other organizations/nations must recognize that sovereignity. You have to prove it's PoV (how about reading the relevant WP:POV article for starts?) not just decide that it's PoV. Please provide a source to your claim (as I asked to do in the edit summary) instead of simply starting an edit war like some who's right kid's game. _└ ^VodkaJazz/_talk^┐ 18:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The SMOM claims sovereignty (but not national sovereignty!). This sovereignty is recognized by many nations. Others do not recognize the SMOM. But that doesn't mean that they dispute the SMOM's sovereignty, they simply don't diplomatically recognize it. Sources would need to be provided, as you say, to show that someone actively disputes the SMOM's claims to sovereignty. john k 02:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too many different sects

This page is a mess.

The contributers have confused the Order of Malta ([4]), the Knights Hospitallers ([5]) and the Sovereign Military Order of Malta ([6]), to name only those I immediately noticed. They are all _very_ different organizations with, unfortunately for Wikipedia, very similar roots. They schismed a few times, long ago, much like Anglicans, Protestants, etc. did from Christianity, and for many of the same belief-founded reasons. You'll even note that the Grand Masters are different on some places, and this can be used, actually, to trace the aforementioned splits in the different Orders, for example.

This will be very difficult to resolve, and there is nothing offendingly wrong with the "overview" currently available under the "Knights Hospitallers" article name. Just know that, for one, the Grand Masters list is incorrect (the current Grand Master of the Knights Hospitallers is actually Count Joseph Frendo-Cumbo of Malta, whereas Willoughby Ninian Bertie is of the Sovereign Order). There are other factual differences as well, most of which might be sorted out eventually by someone more wiki-proficient than I. But know this: it's gonna be quite confusing if you're striving for complete accuracy and precision.

For those so inclined, the "Self-Styled Orders" section of the Sovereign Order's website (English, [7]) may help a little. This only helps for those calling themselves the Sovereign Order, however: when it asserts that many "fake" organizations have cropped up around the world, it is specifying those organizations that attest to being the True Sovereign Order of Malta and not, for example, the Knights Hospitallers (the military hospitallers and knight hospitallers are, again, different)

I know it sucks, but it had to be said. Hopefully one day, someone will get bored enough to rearrange it but for now, like I said, it'll do.

Grazzi hafna =)

[edit] Years and general editing

I have simply just been glancing at the Knights Hospitaller Page and have noticed a few errors here and there. the years are missing their subfix of B.C. or A.D., i made the changes in the first paragraph, but noticing this seems to proceed throughout the page, i want to be sure the changes are correct, so i have ceased editing. it would only make sense though that the years are A.D. and therefore, after Christ was crucified.

I also noted that when the Knights of Malta were invaded by the ottomans, all that is stated is: "Accordingly, they assembled another massive army in order to dislodge the Knights from Malta, and in 1565 invaded, starting the Great Siege of Malta."

OK, so the ottomans invaded what? what area? a specific city? a fortress? yes there is a link for "the Great Siege of Malta", but i think the location should be inserted after "invaded,".

This article does get the general concept and history of the Knights Hospitaller, but i still think there needs to be some work done here and there.

--Killerbicycle

They invaded Malta, obviously. And why would the years need AD after them? Surely no one would be confused by that... Adam Bishop 21:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delisted GA

This article did not go through the current GA nomination process. Looking at the article as is, it fails on criteria 2b of the GA quality standards. Although references are provided, the citation of sources is essential for verifiability. Most Good Articles use inline citations. I would recommend that this be fixed, to reexamine the article against the GA quality standards, and to submit the article through the nomination process. --RelHistBuff 10:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Additions

I have added a few facts to the SMOM section - size of membership, name of current Grand Master etc. For the sake of clarity the heading of the section on the Venerable Order has been amended to give its fuller title. One or two other small edits for style which I trust will be helpful. Jallason 22:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How big were those Christian Crosses?

The article says, "made the Christians wear wooden crosses, half a meter long by half a meter wide, around their necks."

I'd like to put the actual measurement units here, whether that was cubits, arm lengths, or shoulder spans; but 'meters' just doesn't look right in this context. RPellessier | Talk 16:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The information about the mistreatment of Christians seems irrelevant to the rest of the article - unless it can be tied to the order, I've taken it down. It belongs to the article about the city being taken, and to the page of the invader, but not about the religious order that would be founded to hold a bulding that was burnt down in that same invasion - Grey Wolf

[edit] Split off list?

I propose splitting off the list of Grand Masters into Grand Master of the Knights Hospitaller or List of Grand Masters of the Knights Hospitaller. The article is getting long (34K), and the German, Czech, French, Dutch, Polish, and Slovak have such articles separated. It would also provide a clearer link for succession boxes for the people on the list, and a main article for the Category:Grand Masters of the Knights Hospitaller. Any objections? Rigadoun (talk) 17:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Makes sense to me, if there is an appropriate link to the list.Cosal 23:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. I added a link in the "See also" section. If you can think of another place, go ahead and add it. Rigadoun (talk) 16:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The red and white flag shown in the article is _amazingly_ similar to that of the small scandinavian country of Denmark. It's the worlds oldest flag and legend has it that it fell from the sky during a battle in the baltic region.

Is this really the Flag_of_the_Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta?

The Danish flag is called Dannebrog and is widely available in Denmark.

It is the correct flag. It is also very similar to the first flag used by the Holy Roman Empire. Legend states that the Flag of Denmark fell from Heavens to a Danish army in Estonia in 1219. People that don't believe in this legend have often explained the flag as simply a "standard" crusader flag. Now you know why. :) Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 14:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reorganization needed

This article is kind of messy right now. Would it not be better to have the Knights hospitaller article be a general history of knights hospitaller (St John, Lazarus, etc) and then have individual articles for each of the orders? This would help keep things more organized and make it clear that these are distinct orders of the same tradition.--Eva ^bd 15:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

How about something with an article for each of these. This would cover the St John Orders, and similar structure could be given to the Lazarite Orders.

• Alliance of Orders of St John

• Order of Malta

The Four Main Protestant Orders

• Balley Brandenburg ("Johanniterorden")
• Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem
• Johanniterorden I Sverige
• Johanniter Orde in Nederland

The Four non-German Commanderies of the Bailiwick of Brandenburg

• Swiss Commandery of the Order of St John
• French Commandery of the Order of St John
• Hungarian Commandery of the Order of St John
• Finnish Commandery of the Order of St John

If we had an article for each of the starred items, that should cover the topic pretty well. The origins of the Hospitaller Orders in general could either be covered under the SMOM or possibly under the alliance.--dave-- 14:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Since there seem to have been no problems with this proposal on the other talk pages where it has been posted, I've begun the process. This is sorely needed because to the uninitiated, it is completely unclear what is going on with the Orders of St John. If one were to throw the self-styled orders into the mix, it gets even more confusing. (PS-I would suggest lumping the self-styled orders [as defined by the alliance orders] together in one article.--Eva ^bd 21:41, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

The recent re-redirect of this article highlights the point that there is too much confusion over things. We really need to find some way to make these pages organized. There has been no opposition to the move listed on thie articles talk page, yet an editor has moved it back claiming that there was no consensus. There are several talk pages were dave-- made his case and they all came up with few or now problems. We need to work something out better.--Eva ^bd 22:31, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yet Another Proposed Merger

I'm against it because the Knights Hospitaller was the parent of SMOM, The Most Venerable Order, and other legitimate Orders of Saint John. SMOM and KM were seperated because some editors attempted to show the SMOM as the only legitimate offspring of the Knights Hospitaller. Some editors even went so far as to rename "Knights Hospitaller" as "SMOM". Enough of this partisanship. Russophile2 23:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

If the Knights Hospitaller was the parent of SMOM, wouldn't it be best if we'd move the Knights Hospitaller to SMOM as part of SMOM's history? All we'll have to do is to add a subtitle called 'History' to SMOM, then insert all the info from the Knights Hospitaller to the 'History' part. Keith Azzopardi 16:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• However, some editors seem to forget that the Knights Hospitaller was the parent of several orders besides SMOM. Russophile2 03:11, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Then why not include the other orders in the article too? There would be less confusion then...

[edit] New Picture

If someone could find the cross of Knights Hospitaller (which I believe was a white cross on a black background) or their seal and replace the portrait of the Knight at the top of the page, that would be a big improvement.

[edit] Allliance of Chivalry of Hospitallers of Sant John, etc

Howdy Y'all,

I just added: "Linked to the S.M.O.M. by historical tradition and particular agreements are four other Orders of St. John. These Orders of Knighthood have formed the Alliance of Chivalry of Hospitallers of Saint John of Jerusalem based in Basel, of which the President is Bernd, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven and the Secretary is Mr. Ehringer-Krehl. The Members of this Alliance are:

1) Die Balley Brandenburg des Ritterlichen Ordens Sankt Johannes vom Spital zu Jerusalem (the Baliwick of Brandenburg of the Knightly Order of St. John of the Hospital in Jerusalem, otherwise known as the Johanniter Order). The Herrenmeister (Master of the Knights) is H.R.H. Wilhelm-Karl, Prince of Prussia, the membership is divided into Knights of Justice or Honor and it is based in Bonn. It is recognized as an Order of Chivalry by the Federal Republic of Germany and has Finnish, Swiss, French, Austrian and Hungarian Commanderies. The members of Johanniter Order resident in the United States have formed two sub-Commanderies, which have jointly created Johanniter Aid Association in North America Inc., based in New York.

2) The Grand Priory of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem, of which H.M. Queen Elizabeth II is Sovereign Head and H.R.H. the Duke of Gloucester the Grand Prior. The Grand Priory headquarters are at St. John's Gate, Clerkenwell, London EC1M 4DA, and it has Priories in Scotland, Wales, South Africa, New Zealand, Canada and Australia and Commanderies in Northern Ireland and Western Australia. The Lord Prior is Lord Vesty and the Hospitaller is Dr. Noel Rice. The U.S. Priory is composed of United States citizens and British subjects resident in the U.S., who have been admitted to the Order.

3) Johanniterorder i Sverige, which is under the High Protectorship of H.M. the King of Sweden is an Order of the Swedish Crown divided into Knights of Justice or Honor. The Commander is General Fredrik Lovenheim and the Chancellor is Baron Lagerbielke. The headquarters are in Stockholm

4) Johanniter Orde in Nederland, is an Order of the Dutch Crown divided into Knights and Dames of Justice or Honor under the Protection of H.M. Queen Beatrix, who is Honorary Commander. The Landcommandeur is her father, H.R.H. Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands and the headquarters are in the Hague. "

• I pretty much copied it word for word from "The Priory In The United States of The Most Venerable Order of The Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem membership directory 1999." I apologize in advance if any of those people are now dead... Captain Barrett 17:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

The problem with reinventing yourself is that if you succeed you will never notice. 04:44, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] official language

for the constitution of the order http://www.orderofmalta.org/pdf/costituzione.pdf the only official language is the italian.

[edit] Sovereign Military Order of Malta#Mimic Orders

Where is the section #Mimic Orders ? Did it ever existed ?

If you find it, revert my modification. 82.124.211.240

I just deleted link to nice "mimic order" (h**p://www.orderofsaintjohn.info/), where is "Grand master" John Grady from Tennessee. I hope, that this link never rise again :-) Yopie 23:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yopie (talk • contribs)

For more facts about John Grady "order" see http://www.law.emory.edu/6circuit/july97/97a0209p.06.html, where US Court decided, that Grady and his "order" is not real SMOM. Yopie 00:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yopie (talk • contribs)

[edit] Possible Navigation Template

How does this look for a possible template to be used to navigate between the various orders of saint john:

v • d • e Orders of Saint John General Information Knights Hospitaller · Alliance of Orders of St John Catholic Order Sovereign Order of Saint John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta, Knights of Malta, Knights of Rhodes Protestant Orders Balley Brandenburg des Ritterlichen Ordens Sankt Johannis vom Spital zu Jerusalem · Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem · Johanniterorden I Sverige · Johanniter Orde in Nederland Brandenburg Commanderies Swiss Commandery of the Order of St John · French Commandery of the Order of St John · Hungarian Commandery of the Order of St John · Finnish Commandery of the Order of St John

{{Saint John Orders}}

I'm not sure how best to list each order's name and there obviously a lot of red links, but any suggestions are more than welcome.--Eva ^bd 18:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What's the population?

The Montevideo Convention says that a country should have a permanent population, but this article doesn't give a figure. Does anyone know the figure?--ML5 (talk) 12:27, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

THE POPULATION IS 12.500 PEOPLE [8] --Alessandro.pasi (talk) 18:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Does it claim Maltese territory?

--Certh (talk) 14:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

No, they don´t claim Maltese territory. SMOM have as extra-territorial one castle in Malta, as gift from Maltese government. Yopie 21:07, 1 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yopie (talk • contribs)

So can it be described "government in excile" or not?--Certh (talk) 11:35, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Not in the slightest. GIE makes it seem like they were forcibly removed from malta.--Jakezing (talk) 03:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

And SMOM was also forcibly removed from Malta by Napoleon, wasn't it?--Certh (talk) 07:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

But is SMOM still activley claiming to be the goverment of malta?--Jakezing (talk) 15:12, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

No, why? The are sovereign as order, not as rulers of Malta. Yopie 22:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yopie (talk • contribs)

Not much of a GIE, since neither do they, or any other nation/group/order, claim that the SMOM is one.--Jakezing (talk) 02:29, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Notables?

I maintain another order which has a list of "notables." This is tough to maintain since everyone wants their Dad on there! (It was handed out rather indiscrimately in many cases). Anyway, just ran across a Knight of Malta, William Casey. Was about to enter his name but didn't find a place. Since most of my editing on this other article is to delete some good-faith addition of a non-notable, I can see why you would want to avoid this. Is there any general direction that would enable me to delete the section in the article I'm maintaining? Or were you just lucky?  :) Student7 (talk) 16:12, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] World War 2

Was the SMOM affected by World War 2? Did the Germans force their way inside the building occupied by the SMOM? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.107.159.125 (talk) 09:40, 27 March 2008 (UTC)