Talk:Southern Ivy

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[edit] BS?

Did the author of this article just make up this term? If so, it should be deleted.

Response: It's a colloquial term, but it's not BS. I've heard this phrase for the past 20 years or so. Of course, I grew up in the South. To delete it would smack of anti-regional bias. - Vandy

I disagree. I grew up (still am) in the Midwest and have heard the term "Midwest Ivies" thrown around, but that doesn't mean it should be a Wikipedia article. Like Southern Ivies, it is undefined and entirely subjective. Who's to say if Davidson is a Southern Ivy, or if Wheaton is a Midwest Ivy? By contrast, other similar terms like "Public Ivy" and "Jesuit Ivy" are historically documented and, by definition, refer to specific schools. In my opinion, this article should be deleted since it is inherently a point of view. 129.105.35.130 17:31, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

This term is definite BS. I'm from Mississippi, I went to Vanderbilt and Cornell, and anyone who would use this term is delusional and pretentious. I have never heard this term used colloquially in the South, or elsewhere. The term is not commonly used by anyone at Vanderbilt, nor anyone in the real Ivy League. Highly selective Southern schools don't need this made-up appellation to get respect. Get rid of this article. - Vandy is Vandy, not Ivy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.255.9.254 (talk • contribs)

This article should be deleted. The term is extremely obscure. Just because someone used it once or twice, or because some marketer is trying to popularize it, does not mean it deserves an article. Much of the article does not cover the term at all, but explains "Public Ivies" and "the Harvard of ___," both of which are off-topic. --Shuffl 20:12, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AfD

A previous articel by this name was disccused at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Southern Ivy League and the consensus was to delete. The main concerns raised were lack of sources. When the matter was dissuced on Deletion review, the creator said "I have referenced and sourced the article, removed POV speculation, and recreated. Since this addresses the vast majority of the AfD claims (Leaving only "neologism," which I take to be a variation of "I've never heard of it so it must not be notable" in this case, since the term obviously exists), I assume this will not be an issue. Phil Sandifer 17:28, 7 November 2005 (UTC)"

If anyone nominates this for deletion, please be sure you note that it is a second nomination. Before doign so, please consider the source information added in this version. DES ^(talk) 18:28, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

The second AFD debate ended in a no consensus keep. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Southern Ivies. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:48, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Prestigious"

If humanly possible, I would like this article to say what it needs to say without using that word "prestigious." It is a word that is far more subjective even than notable. Other encyclopedias, as far as I know do not use it. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:55, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

A brief online check reveals that Britannica uses it in the first sentence of their article on Harvard: "oldest institution of higher learning in the United States (founded 1636) and one of the nation's most prestigious." I haven't looked beyond that. Christopher Parham (talk) 06:20, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

- I stand corrected. Dpbsmith (talk) 10:56, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NCAA ranking

So what NCAA conference do these schools play in? The Ivy League is, nowadays, I-AA. Septentrionalis 06:42, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

It depends. Some are Division I-A (Vanderbilt) while Emory is Division-III. - Vandy

[edit] References given are extremely poor

The two references on the page currently are extremely poor, and are low-quality, untrustworthy sources that merely use the phrase "Southern Ivy" without defining it. Since neither of the low-quality references provided define "Southern Ivies", the entire article is original research. I don't doubt that the phrase has colloquial usage, but it needs much better references to support an encyclopedia article. 165.189.91.148 20:43, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

User:Snowspinner asks which claims in the article are not supported by references. The answer really is all of them except for the single sentence with the two external links in it. (Even that is bogus: it says that "The term is fairly widely used in southern academic institutions, and in casual conversation both among academics" and a single extremely poor reference doesn't support "fairly widely". In fact, research reported on the AFD page suggests that the term is rarely used.) Specifically, the very first claim in the article is not sourced: "Southern Ivies is a colloquial term for universities in the Southern United States, implying a comparison with the northeastern universities that make up Ivy League.". Without that, the entire page has no foundation. 165.189.91.148 16:38, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Just for the record... I'm partly responsible for that first sentence. The opening sentence used to say that Southern Ivy is "A colloquial term used by many Southerners to describe prestigious Southern universities," which is of course equally unsourced. I tried to rewrite it in a way that did not make the POV claim that these universities are "prestigious." I put in the the phrase "implying a comparison with the northeastern universities that make up the Ivy League," on the assumption that it is common knowledge that that is what people mean when they call a college an "Ivy," and therefore does not need to be sourced. I deliberately sidestepped any statement of what, exactly, is being compared (U.S. news ranking? Percentage of people listed in the Social Register as graduates?) or what the results of the comparison are (does calling Duke a Southern Ivy imply that it is: better than? on a par with? almost as good as, say, Cornell?)

Of course, IMHO the part that needs support is the statement that it is "used by many Southerners."

My own feeling is that "Southern Ivies" is not a real idiom, it is just the ordinary meanings of the conjoined words "Southern" (meaning a region of the U.S.) and "Ivy" (meaning a very good university).

If I were to say "Beloit College is sometimes considered a Wisconsin Ivy," I think people would know what I meant, but it would not mean that "Wisconsin Ivies" is a real, encyclopedic term. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:57, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Dpbsmith, I agree with you.

I consider the first sentence to be unsourced. User:Snowspinner claims that it's self-evident, but that is just another way to say unsourced. The stuff concerning US News and World Report rankings has no proper foundation. There's no evidence provided that US News has ever used the term "Southern Ivies" which makes that section original research in this context, so I've removed that portion. (It has another bad problem--college rankings change over time and no date was given for the rankings which makes the claim hard to verify.) The reference given for use of the term "Southern Ivies" in an academic setting does not support the claim that it is commonly used in Southern academia so I reworded that part. Since that reference is an anonymous web forum posting I don't see how it could possibly be used to support a claim specific to any part of the world. Actually an anonymous web forum posting is such a poor reference I would be embarrassed to use as a source for much of anything. There is also a problem with User:Snowspinner's claim that the term is colloquial--there's no reference indicating that. The sentence that says that Southern Ivies has no official definition is also unreferenced. I've left those unsourced claims in for now. There is better support for the use of Southern Ivies in the context of a proposed athletic conference.

Overall, the comparison with the Public Ivies article is striking. Public Ivies is well-written and well-researched with credible references. This page is rife WP:V problems. 165.189.91.148 22:21, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

The references are bad because this term is wishful thinking and not received, or even colloquial. I am from the South, went to Vanderbilt, and no such term is widely used. At Vanderbilt, Tulane, Emory, Duke, etc. etc., one time or other some students or athletics fans have tried to introduce the term "Harvard of the South." These attempts at nicknaming have diminished as some of these schools have gained national prestige in their own rights. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.255.9.254 (talk • contribs)

[edit] "By what standard is a claim sourced to US News and World Report unsourced?"

Snowspinner, I wasn't the anon who removed most of that paragraph. I don't agree with its removal, and I agree with its reversion.

However... I most emphatically do not agree with your edit comment.

This article does not purport to be a "list of academically high-ranking Southern colleges." Any such list would be promptly voted for deletion, as "list of notable U.S. colleges" was well over a year ago.

It purports to be about something called "Southern Ivies."

If U. S. News and World Report had a category called "Southern Ivies," or if they had an editorial remark in which they opined that the top schools in their regional list for their South region might be called the "Southern Ivies," or if they defined some set of criteria that they said represented a "Southern Ivy," then U. S. News and World Report would be a good source, and good defining authority for "what is a Southern Ivy."

What we have now is someone's opinion that "Southern Ivies" ought to mean "Southern schools ranked in the top fifty by U. S. News and World Report." If you asked someone who uses the phrase "Southern Ivies" what it means, do you think that is how they would define it? Dpbsmith (talk) 23:31, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I was about to remove the bit about US News as being irrelevant, but I see there's already been discussion on it. I have the same concerns given above, though. As it stands right now, this seems to be a sneaky way for the article to imply that these schools are "Southern Ivies". We should not be using Wikipedia to push our own desired usages of terms, we should be reporting on what's already established. Anyone else think this bit should be removed? Friday (talk) 15:19, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

See if you can find a way to wordsmith it. I agree that we don't want to adjudicate a meaning for the phrase "Southern Ivies," we don't want to pronounce which Southern schools are "best," and we want to give too much credence to U. S. News and World Report. But I do think something should preserved regarding how the Southern Ivies actually compare with the schools of the Ivy League. Perhaps replace the whole paragraph with something like: "In U. S. New and World Report rankings, if Duke were in the Ivy League it would rank fifth out of nine." Leave it to the reader to research where Rice, Emory, and Vanderbilt stand, and whether they think a ranking of 15 (Brown) versus 17, 18, and 20 actually means anything or not. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:29, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Given that the term has no official meaning, the next most sensible thing to do is to list what schools people talk about when they talk about "good schools in the South," which is, after all, what the term means. Phil Sandifer 00:38, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Probably should not be speedied

This article probably should not be speedied, because the stated reason does not apply.

The stated reason is that "This page was voted for deletion on November 6th: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Southern_Ivy_League."

However, this article is not Southern Ivy League, which, as of November 6th, looked like this.

This article is Southern Ivies.

And, guess what: on November 14th, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Southern Ivies was closed with "the result of the debate was keep (no consensus)."

Of course I'm ego-involved. I wouldn't be sorry to see this article go, but since it looked as if that wasn't going to happen I'm one of the people who tried to bash it into more neutral and citation-supported shape.

Maybe it should be renominated for AfD.

(If it does get speedied, I will not be the one to list it for deletion review though). Dpbsmith (talk) 21:15, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree that it shouldn't be speedied, but perhaps an AFD would be correct. Zordrac (talk) Wishy Washy Darwikinian Eventualist 19:00, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I won't nominate it for AfD, but if it is nominated for AfD I will vote to delete it. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Never mind, it's been speedied. Dpbsmith (talk) 19:25, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I have undelted it since the supplied reason in the delte log does not apply. I will bring this for an after the fact reveiw to WP:DRV I think. DES ^(talk) 17:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion Review

This articel was discussed (for the second time) on Wikipedia:Deletion review starting on 8 December 2005. Please examine the history for this discussion before consiering a speedy delete for this article. DES ^(talk) 20:52, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Categorisation

Should this be under Category:Lists of universities and colleges (like Ivy League) or Category:Colleges and universities? Enochlau 22:39, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect

There's nothing on this page of substance that isn't summarize more concisely and in context at Ivy League. JDoorjam 00:49, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

You can't just arbitrarily delete an article that you don't agree with. Especially one that has been put up for a vote, and kept. I've reported you for abuse. (by anonymous user) (Sorry...forgot to write my name) - Vandy

I have reverted the article back to its original state. It has twice survive AFD and it doesn' make much sense to me to redirect it to an article which has little content about this topic. Capitalistroadster 09:22, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

The article it redirected to is EXACTLY about this topic: not only the Ivy League, but colloquialisms that use "_____ Ivy League". "Southern Ivies" isn't a real thing, just like "Midwest Ivies." JDoorjam 12:56, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Vandy, redirecting an article is not deleting it. See my further comments at User_talk:JDoorjam. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:12, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

P.S. This article has always been marginal. It is almost pure academic boosterism and/or regional boosterism. "Southern Ivies" just means good Southern school. There's no particular need for an encyclopedia article about them. Nobody ought to give a flying fig whether or not Emory is better than Brown. And nobody who knows "Ivy" can loosely mean any academically superior, socially prestigious school needs to have a special article to explain that a Southern Ivy is an "Ivy" that happens to be in the South. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:24, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree this article should be deleted, "Vandy." I went to Vanderbilt and no one used this term when I went there. I agree this is pure boosterism. Selective Southern colleges do not need this type of term to gain respect. - Vandy is Vandy, not Ivy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.255.9.254 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Tulane; and, Princeton of the South vs. Harvard of the South

I believe, but don't have a specific citation at hand to back me up, that among actual Ivy League schools, Princeton was the traditional preferred choice of young Southern gentlemen; specifically, Princeton was preferred over Harvard. I don't know why. I don't think I'm basing this on a sample size of one (F. Scott Fitzgerald).

[I'm not sure what you are talking about. I think F. Scott Fitzgerald was from Minnesota or somewhere in the midwest] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.82.89 (talk • contribs)

You're right. F. Scott Fitzgerald is irrelevant. I still think I'm correct about the Southern elite preferring Princeton over Harvard. Dpbsmith (talk) 12:59, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

It would be interesting to know the history of "Princeton of the South" vs. "Harvard of the South."

So... with regard to the assertion that the HoTS accolade "most commonly and historically refers to Tulane University," I have to say: if Tulane is so good, why is it only the Harvard of the South, instead of the Princeton of the South?

But seriously, I'm very inclined to doubt that statement about Tulane, and I intend to remove it in a week or so if someone doesn't provide a good, verifiable source citation. Dpbsmith (talk) 21:16, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

OK, here are the result of a Google Books search on "Harvard of the South". The slashses are tally marks.

I'm not counting some hits that did not give access to the books, or reference such as "University of Orlando was not exactly the Harvard of the South."

It is not at all clear that Harvard of the South "most commonly" refers to Tulane so I'm removing the Tulane item now, and it should not be reinserted unless someone provides a good, verifiable source citation to a published source saying this is the commonest use. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

This article dedicates the entire first section to the Princetonification of Southern mascots. (Sadly, the article goes on to explain, Denison University is not the Big Red out of any sort of homage to Cornell.) It doesn't prove your hunch, but seems to support it. JDoorj a m Talk 03:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List not world-class enough

I have a problem with the Southern Ivy List. I don't think schools like Murray State, Samford, Johnson C. Smith University are world-class universities like Duke, Vanderbilt, Rice, Wake Forest, etc. That is just ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.82.89 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Duke ranked first by U. S. News?

User:LaszloWalrus recently added:

Duke is the only "Southern Ivy" ever to be ranked first by U.S. News and World Report, or indeed, ever to make the top ten.

I looked for this on the Duke University website and couldn't find it. I think Duke's website apparently not mention it is sufficiently odd that I'm removing the statement pending User:LaszloWalrus's providing a verifiable source citation. Duke currently ranks fifth. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move to Southern Ivy?

Public Ivies recently got moved to Public Ivy. Should this page follow suit? JDoorj a m Talk 05:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I certainly don't care. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

This page is already Southern Ivy. QuizQuick 21:22, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

- That's because JDoorjam went ahead and moved it. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

- - Then why did he ask? -Bindingtheory 01:24, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
    - I asked before moving it because I wanted to make sure there weren't rabid objections, but then a few hours later decided that nobody would probably mind and it could always be undone if there were a reason to undo it. JDoorj a m Talk 02:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I've posted this before, and it seems to have been deleted. The University of Virginia is consistently ranked second behind only Duke (in terms of peer review score) by US News and World Report, and yet it was left off of that list on this article.

[edit] peer assessment assessment

[edit] Unsourced item

students at the University of Mississippi(Ole Miss) refer to their school as "the Harvard of the South" and to Harvard as "the Ole Miss of the North."

Nice. Very likely true. Needs a source citation. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:32, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

It is true. Unfortunately, the source is a t-shirt that was very popular back when I was at Ole Miss. Also, Ole Miss' colors are "Harvard red" and "Yale blue." Not sure how one cites articles of clothing. - Maalox, 09:08, 22 March 2007

[edit] Irrelevant list of Southern schools in the U. S. News top 100

I'm removing this list, as it is obviously just going to attract boosterish editions. There's no objective way to decide whether the cutoff should be the top ten, top 20, top 50, top 100, top 500, top 20,000. It has no particular connection to "Southern Ivies." Nobody has cited a source that says the phrase "Southern Ivies" means "Southern school ranking in the top 100 in the U. S. News Report rankings." Certainly, "Ivy League" does not mean "all the Northeastern schools that rank in the top 100 in the U. S. News and World Report rankings." I am certain that the notion of "Southern Ivy" is not based solely on academic merit, but also includes a measure of social status. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:02, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Colleges

Southern schools ranking within the top 100 nationally by USNews[1] (ordered by score, US overall rank in parenthesis):

Duke University (8)
Rice University (17)
Vanderbilt University (T 18)
Emory University (T 18)
University of Virginia(*) (24)
University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill(*) (27)
Wake Forest University (30)
College of William and Mary(*) (31)
Tulane University (44)
Southern Methodist University (70)

(*) = public university

[edit] Newsweek's "New Ivies"

I'm moving this here, because there's no evidence that Newsweek's list has gotten any traction or widespread use. It was just some magazine's idea for an article. I've yet to see any references to these "new Ivies" anywhere else. (And It's a silly list. Who mentions Emory (big, conservative-ish Southern university), Reed (small Oregon liberal-arts college) and Olin College of Engineering? Can anybody even imagine applying to all three of those? For that matter, how can anyone call Emory (founded 1836) as "New?") Dpbsmith (talk) 15:36, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

While Rice, Vanderbilt, and Emory were included in Newsweek Magazine's List of "25 New Ivies". [2]

-- Southern Ivy as defined by the article represents a school that is "comparable to the Ivy League in some form". The list of southern schools on Newsweek's list seems to fit in with that definition. According to the admissions consultants who wrote the article, more competition to Ivy League schools has created the "Ivies" to expand to other schools of high academic quality. If the connotation has expanded to include southern schools (Rice, Emory, Vandy) it seems reasonable that it is included in the article. The article recieve widespread spread press (not to mention Newsweek is a major magazine) and the authors have appeared on many televison shows to talk about their article including the Today Show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5oXdj-TTPg. RedBull11 18:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Some of the changes such as "Failed efforts to develop an Ivy-League-like Southern athletic conference" sound too wordy and have been edited for clarity. RedBull11 19:08, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tulane

Why is "southern ivy" displayed on the tulane page, yet tulane is not listed as a southern ivy school? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.151.156.98 (talk) 01:54, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Tulane isn't in the first eight listed according to the US News webpage, which is easily verified. Using the same source, it's 12th. That doesn't stop people from editing the Tulane topic, supplying their opinions in lieu of facts. A quick read of the Tulane topic shows more than that which is nonfactual. Tedickey (talk) 20:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Georgia Tech

Why is the number of Southern Ivies cut off at 8 universities? Georgia Tech ranked 35th overall, while William & Mary was 33rd. What is the logic of cutting off the Ivy designation at 34? I'm thinking it was just convenience to keep the nerds out... Nice. We will have our revenge! :)

Probably the number was picked out to correspond with the Ivy League. Just use a reliable source, and don't say anything that's not in the source ;-) Tedickey (talk) 22:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

If this is going to be a serious bone of contention we should leave out the list altogether. Nobody has said that a definition of a Southern Ivy is "one of the top eight in U. S. News' National Universities in the South." The whole article is marginal precisely because no Southern Ivy League was ever formed, and there's no definition of the phrase; it just means "good university."

If the phrase "Ivy League" didn't have a precise definition, would you think of MIT as "an Ivy?" I sure wouldn't (and I personally bleed cardinal and gray.) Dpbsmith (talk) 02:11, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] If you want to add Tulane...

...find a reliable, published source that uses the phrase "Southern Ivy" to describe Tulane and add it together with the source.

For example, if Tulane's own website uses the phrase, you can say "Tulane calls itself a Southern Ivy."

That's how to do it, and get it to stick.

Don't try to sail too close to the wind on what constitutes a "reliable source." The main thing here is that it needs to be something verifiable: anyone should be able to check that the source says what you say it says. Print media... a book... is best. A college newspaper will probably do, particularly if it's available online.

You can't just say Tulane is a "Southern Ivy." You have to show that something reasonable, like a college guidebook, calls it that. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)