Talk:Southeastern (train operating company)

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[edit] Header photo

Does anyone have a nice, recent photograph of a Class 375 Electrostar? We’re still using one with Connex logos as the header image. David Arthur 19:56, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

See talk at Talk:South Eastern Trains as well Pickle 00:20, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I've replaced the header photo with image:Southeastern-465164-01.jpg, which although not a new train, does at least have Southeastern branding rather than Connex. When we get a 375 photo then it can be changed. Thryduulf 19:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I've replaced the above image with Image:NewCross-375913-01crop.jpg - a photograph of a Class 375 with Southeastern branding photographed two days ago at New Cross station. Thryduulf 23:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Class 395

Quote: They will be known as British Rail Class 395 when in service.

Surely not! 10-11 years after the winding-up of British Rail? Wikipedia has developed the (in my view) unsatisfactory and confusing practice of naming articles about post-BR traction classes "British Rail Class X", but that ought not to be extended into making inaccurate statements in the text of articles. -- Picapica 09:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The same classification system that was used by BR is still in use today, so it is still the British Rail classification system. It is not a Network Rail Class X, nor are/were there Railtrack Class X trains. Class X is possible, but ambiguous with other schemes, for example that used on the French network and with headcode classes. Until a new classification system is introduced - which AIUI is very unlikely at the moment - then British Rail Class X is correct. Thryduulf 13:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

It is not a Network Rail Class X, nor are/were there Railtrack Class X trains.
Of course not. Straw dog argument. Network Rail and Railtrack are/were infrastructure companies as eny fule kno.

Then which successor organisation has the equivalent naming rights? Shadow) Strategic Rail Authority? (Office of the) Rail Regulator? HSE? HMRI? ROSCOs? TOCs? Manufactuers? RAIB? DfT? All of them have direct input into the rolling stock to some degree. There clearly is no single organisation that embodies every bit of BR's rolling stock design/classification role. Thryduulf 22:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I can see more reason in your second point, inasmuch as you are arguing that the notion of a "British Rail Class" lives on, as part of the post-BR legacy system. However, I have seen no evidence that this is true anywhere outside of Wikipedia and its derivatives. I have never seen or heard reference anywhere else to any such beast as, for instance, a "British Rail Class 222" - and I remain of the view that naming articles in this way is putting taxonomic convenience before respect for the principles expressed inWikipedia:Naming conventions that

names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists;

and that

article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize.

--Picapica 16:28, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

A lack of ambiguity benefits the reader as much as the editor. In the vast majority of places where there is any need to talk about different classes of trains there is no need to establish that the classes are British Rail classes.
An article about "Class 395" in a specialist work needs no disambiguation. As you have already pointed out though we are not a specialist work - we are a general work and thus have need to distinguish between British railway trains and the countless other uses (including trains of other nations - Deutshe Bahn uses a very similar system but with different numbers, for example Class (0)66 would be a steam locomotive).
As there is no industry need to disambiguate, but an encylopaedic need to do so, we must choose a name that "the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize.". The majority of English speakers would clearly recognise that "British Rail Class 395" is going to be about the British Railway system - even if they have never heard of the organisation. The generalist also cannot be expected to know that the Class 455 trains were built before Class 444s so to look for the former at British Rail Class 455 and the latter at Shadow Strategic Rail Authority Class 444, while they must read about Class 395s at Department for Transport Class 395 - even though this could be about any form of transport in any country that might have such a department. Taxonomic naming thus also helps the reader in cases like this.
The only name that is accurate and consistent is TOPS Class 395 - but this would not be regognised other than by a specialist, and might be ambiguous - after all BR bought it after seeing it in operation in North America, and the DB system (which is not named in its article) seems [i]very[/i] similar. I beleive also that the railways in the Benelux countries also use a very similar system. Thryduulf 22:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The majority of English speakers would clearly recognise that "British Rail Class 395" is going to be about the British Railway system.

No, in my view they would expect something about British Rail (1965-1994). There never was a "British Railway system", though there was a "British Railways system" and there has, of course, been a "British railway system" for over 175 years. It is the "British Rail" -- the latter-day marketing name of a now defunct organization -- that is the very large fly in this ointment. If the prediction about the classification of the new trains turns out to be correct, any article about them ought, in my view, to be entitled "Class 395 electric multiple unit", or, if disambiguation were required, "Class 395 electric multiple unit (Great Britain)". -- Picapica 22:12, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

By "British Railway system" I meant "railways in Britain" in it most generic form, I appologise for my unclear wording. The assumption might be that it relates to the British Rail era, but assumptions are not always correct - the article should make it clear about the dates/organisations involved. There are still people who (incorrectly) refer to the whole railway system as British Rail still ("I travel to Crewe regularly, but going by British Rail these days it is pot luck if you get there"). To these people describing a Class 395 (which is more than a predicted desgination, as I've seen at least two different official uses - see the article) as British Rail is perfectly logical. They will not be suprised at the content of this article after clicking a link calling it "British Rail Class 395".
There needs to be consistency in the naming of articles about the rolling stock used on railways in Great Britain so that links end up at their intended target with the minimum of effort from the editor - meaning that readers are taken where they expect to be taken. There should be no need for the casual reader/editor (remember non-specialists do edit these articles as well as railway enthusiasts) to know whether Class X is a diesel locomotive, electric locomotive, electric multiple unit, diesel multiple unit, or a multiple unit or locomotive that can run on diesel or electric power.
The only terms that coudl encompas (sp?) all of these are "train" or "rolling stock". Train is incorrect as a Class X train relates to the train reporting number (headcode), and a train may be formed of combinations of more than one locomotive/multiple unit and/or coaching stock. "Rolling stock" is better but also includes coaches and wagons, which have their own classification systems. It is also not immediately obvious to none-specialist readers what it is.
Class 395 (Great Britain) would need distinguishing between other types of classes (busses, boats, etc perhaps) and is therefore not suitable. "TOPS Class X" has been rejected several times.
To have some classes suffxied with "(Great Britain)" and others not is going to result in unnecessary links to disambiguation pages - a hinderance to the reader and creates extra work for editors unnecessarily.
There is apparently no official term as there is no need for the relevant organisations to disambiguate; we do have such a need and so must create and use a term that results in the least suprise for readers and editors. This is the entire purpose of naming conventions. "British Rail Class X" will not leave anyone suprised the article relates to what it does. No better term exists, so why change it? Thryduulf 00:05, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Future

Read about the new timetable today ( [[1]] BBC News and [[2]] Southeastern website) - the 508s are to be replaced with 466s on the Sheerness Branch and Medway valley lines, among some other extra services. don't know if we can spin this into the article or just amend it when the change does happen ? Pickle 07:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Logo

New logo added by User:Rvd2007

Logo currently appearing on the official web site

Is there any proof they are using this new logo? I know that the font is called Rockwell. Unisouth 09:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, what is the source for the new logo? It still has not appeared on their web site. David Arthur 16:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Until someone provides a source, I’m restoring the logo that appears on the official web site. David Arthur 20:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


The logo used on this page and on the official site are indeed not the correct logo, strange how it hasnt been updated on the main site but has been on the majority of documents given out by the company. I guess we leave it with the old SET logo until the new logo is put up onto the website? [[[User:Jennisuk|Zephyr]] 23:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)]

I have just put a comment and since removed it on the other southeastern trains page! The logo 'rockwell' can be seen on their newsletter leaflet available at train stations. I prefer the old logo and not the new one. --Screen42 00:45, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I completely agree with your comment about the new logo, it looks old fashioned, but not in a good way like Southern's logo does James MSC 11:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Today Southeastern launched their newlook website, complete with the new logo at the top. As it is now used on their site i think that we should be using it on this article. Southeastern's site. Zephyr

[edit] Class 375 Electroliner

Someone decided that the Class 375 goes as three coaches per set, when they are infact very wrong. The majority of all 375 sets come as sets of 4, and sometimes three. You can see most services from London Victoria to Ramsgate & Dover Priory with eight coaches, and seven on the rare occasion, consisting of two fours, or one four and one three.

I've changed it to look more appropriate.

The 376 is OK at the moment, because when in service they either operate as five or 10 coach configurations. Alteran Ancient 18:40, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nature of Integrated Kent Franchise

There seems to be some disagreement about the nature of the IKF. Let me nail my colours to the mast. The Integrated Kent Franchise is an amalgamation of the old South Eastern Franchise and the CTRL Domestic Services. For the purposes of accuracy on the succession box, I believe it is fair to treat the CTRL-DS as a franchise itself that simply did not run any trains. Is this fair, or am I talking out of somewhere unpleasant? Hammersfan 31/10/07, 13.17 GMT —Preceding comment was added at 13:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

The Integrated Kent Franchise is the franchise that replaced the South Eastern franchise in 2006. At this already included the CTRL-DS service to be commenced apon completion of the CTRL. So the franchise is still the same. 'Preceded by' also means that the thing preceding existed beforehand. This is definitely not the case. The CTRL-DS did not exist before the Integrated Kent franchise as the South Eastern franchise did. Further more the succession box should only list operators and Franchises not individual services. I can see your point that the CTRL-DS is a impotent service wroth special mentioning but the the succession box is definitely the wrong place for this. 91.64.3.248 14:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CTRL-DS

It's troubling that this article manages to mention "CTRL-DS" several times without either explaining the term or linking to a page which might explain it. Can someone who knows this stuff please fix it? Thanks. 92.234.10.126 (talk) 22:10, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

‘CTRL-DS’ just means domestic services on the Channel Tunnel Rail Link (i.e. High Speed 1). I’ve added a definition to the appropriate section of the article. David Arthur (talk) 22:31, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Brilliant, thank you very much. 92.234.10.126 (talk) 23:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

CTRL changed it's name to High Speed 1, and signage is starting to appear (at Ebbsfleet for example). The Wikipedia article has been renamed, so I've updated this article. Edgepedia (talk) 05:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)