Talk:South Western Main Line

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Info The route diagram template for this article can be found in Template:South Western Main Line.

Contents

[edit] Possible rename

I am proposing renaming this article to Southampton and Weymouth Main Line, and then renaming West of England Main Line to South Western Main Line. See discussion on Talk:Rail transport in Great Britain#Railway lines in the United Kingdom -- Chris j wood 11:45, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Waterloo via Weybridge railway service

Currently I have put this up for a rename as i think it deserves to possibly be a line. It is mainly served by commuter trains. I am mentioning this as the stations are on the South Western Man Line but are not mentioned here. Also part of my reasoning is the creation of the Trent Valley Line and the Rugby-Birmingham-Stafford Line articles. Simply south 23:47, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge with SWML? Simply south 15:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Guess you might as well, as there's little scope for adding non-timetable detail. (However, also see below...) -- EdJogg 22:12, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't quite agree, as this is simply a different service on the line and not a different line. We should create a new article on it, but it should be clearly shown as a local service. I'm not quite with the name of it: Waterloo to Woking via Weybridge service implies it is a different line, so shouldn't it be called the Waterloo to Woking stopping service? Also there should be one for the Waterloo to Basingstoke stopping service, which is just as frequent. Anywikiuser (talk) 17:57, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stations between Waterloo and Woking??

Are there any stations between Waterloo and Woking, besides Clapham Junction? If there are, this article ignores them and provides no obvious means of finding out what they are or where they are described.

EdJogg 23:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Look above this talk section. Simply south 00:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Not quite sure what you meant, but your reply did make me look at West of England Main Line, where I discovered the stations are listed, so I have added links as appropriate. EdJogg 00:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Though they probably should be added to the SWML as thats really the line they're on. What do you think? Simply south 09:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps the Waterloo-Weybridge-Woking page referenced above could be expanded to provide fuller data for that section of the route, and the SWML and WEML pages refer out to it? AlexTiefling 10:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
My apologies, Simply south, I now understand your original reply! Obviously the title Waterloo via Weybridge railway service did not make me think that it would contain relevant information – perhaps if the title also included 'Woking'?? (Heck, it was late at night, and it's started a discussion...)
AlexTiefling's ideas seem sound. That section of route was the first LSWR mainline to be developed, so there is scope for a history section too. I would suggest that:
  1. Queenstown Road and Vauxhall stations be included on all relevant route maps, allowing...
  2. just the stations between Clapham Junction and Woking to be omitted, instead showing a section of dotted line and a link to the Waterloo-Weybridge-Woking page, indicating that 'intermediate staions may be found at.... '
  3. Can add the plethora of divergent routes on the new route map – might as well make the most of it!!
BTW, Portsmouth Direct Line article will need the same treatment as SWML, since that also omits all the same stations.
EdJogg 10:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure about Queenstown Road. Yes it is on the main line but it is served by trains to Barnes, Brentford, Strawberry Hill, Staines, Windsor and Reading, i think. Simply south 11:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Tricky. Now we're getting into the old chestnut of 'lines vs services'. For an article describing a section of line, as we are discussing here, I would expect the route map to show ALL stations, or at least indicate that certain stations had been omitted for clarity (as long as a link was provided to a page where they were described). ECML fails miserably on this point, since it is not clear how many stations are on the line, although I understand that the distance and number of stations covered requires rather different treatment.
If you omit Queenstown Road, (a) the route map suggests there are no intermediate stations between Vauxhall/Clapham Jnc (as appropriate) and Waterloo and (b) a reader has no idea how to find the article describing it
My suggestion for including both minor stations north of Clapham Junc was simply to make the map neater, as there would then only need to be a single reference to the page describing the omitted stations.
EdJogg 11:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

OK. I will probably add them to the SWML template (and i wouldn't call Vauxhall minor, thanks for the typo). Simply south 11:26, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I've added them. Simply south 11:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I've now upgraded Portsmouth Direct Line to suit. This uses an alternative to showing all the stations, which I think works reasonably well. -- EdJogg 12:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Looks good. I just changed Liphook and Liss to HST. Simply south 13:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Bravo! I'm strongly in favour of a good balance between detail and concision. Ideally, every notable feature on every line should be shown somewhere in the Project, but not every single time we map out a line which happens to pass it. This setup follows that principle admirably. AlexTiefling 13:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

At the risk of prolonging this discussion further... The stations between Waterloo and Woking or Basingstoke could be removed in their entirety (from West of England Main Line), and replaced with the 'ellipsis' (dotted line) and a comment showing which line contained the actual detail. There is a precedent for this: Reading-Plymouth line omits all detail prior to Reading, and looks very business-like as a result.

EdJogg 15:15, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The principal stations should still be included. Simply south 15:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I didn't think that would work, but I think I've cracked it now.
Have a look at the latest West of England Main Line...
EdJogg 16:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Separate article for Waterloo to Basingstoke section??

The new route map components allow us to show much more information than was previously possible. Rather than just a list of station dots connected by lines, all the junctions (current and former) and closed stations may also be shown, allowing a great deal of context information to be packed into a very small space – much more encyclopaedic!

Between Basingstoke and Waterloo, as I write, there are numerous junctions missing: Reading, Ascot line, Pirbright Jc., Bordon Camp, Brookwood Cemetery, Virginia Water, Effingham Jc, Hampton Court, Shepperton, Chessington/Epsom, Sutton, Wimbledon (x3!!). No doubt there are many more in the other direction, and a few closed stations too, still to add. All this adds up to a potentially very long Route Map.

So, how about creating a new page such as Waterloo to Basingstoke Line to contain the relevant section and its Route Map. It would also allow better coverage of the many, many services that share this section of track. An added bonus would be the rationalisation of other articles, such as West of England Main Line, Portsmouth Direct Line, and all the others that connect to the main line. In each case, ALL duplication could be removed, and it would only be necessary to refer to the new mainline page. (For an example of how this can work effectively, see Reading to Plymouth Line).

Thoughts?

EdJogg 22:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Not sure. I'd say its part of SWML. Simply south 23:12, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
EdJogg's suggestions sound very sound to me. AlexTiefling 08:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree, it would work like the Waterloo to Woking stopping service, but it should be called the Waterloo to Basingstoke stopping service. As with the Woking service, it should be shown very clearly as a SERVICE and not a LINE.

[edit] Branches

Do you think the branches to the other suburban lines should be included on the template? Simply south 16:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Most definitely! There isn't a better way to show the relationships between the branches – it will help to locate them relative to the stations. The 'Southern' route maps also require mileages added.
EdJogg 18:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm being stupid! Anyway, there ae rather too many to do at Clapham Junction. How will we get round that? Simply south 19:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Not sure how best to show it on the main diagram – what we have is probably as close as we can get. The correct place to show the junctions is in a new route map on the Clapham Junction article itself. There is already a section attempting to describe the situation (Clapham Junction#The junction, but I think you'll agree that a diagram will make much more sense! (See Cornish Main Line for an example of the amazing capability of this map system!).
EdJogg 21:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a new Route diagram template at Clapham Junction showing the layout of the railway lines. Anywikiuser (talk) 18:02, 23 December 2007 (UTC)