Talk:South Ossetia

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[edit] Comment

Double standards: Kosovo and South Ossetia, any difference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.151.71.18 (talk) 15:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

This country has not been recognized as independent by any other nations, yet it's been given as an entry as a separate country. Also, the declaration of its indpenence is listed as coming in 1944. Also, the map shown is that of Iceland, although this region is in Russia. Moncrief, 7 Mar 2004

The Iceland stuff want remain. I just use it when adding the tables to the unrecognized countries. South Ossetia is at independent as Chechnya or her East African counterpart Somaliland. They have succesfully fought the goverment of Georgia and that gives there decleration of independence some truth. She has fought a civil war and was not demolished and thats why her "independence" holds water. Vital Component, 7 mar 2004 3:40 pm U.S. Eastern Standard Time.

I can't see the harm in having the table there. It's a defacto state, and I don't think a table specifies it as an independent country - especially when it says "Recognition - None". Perhaps recognition could be linked to an article on international recognition of states. Ambivalenthysteria 22:18, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It makes it pretty clear that the country isn't yet recognized by other countries, and like the previous poster said, its de facto independence is valid. I don't myself think that recognition is in the cards but as long as the situation remains like this I think that they deserve the box that widely recognized countries get.

The article is well-written, and remarkably neutral for a subject that might otherwise be really hot, so...my compliments to the authors.Adam Faanes 21:01, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

South Ossetia has de facto recognition but regardless of how well they are known. It appears that Ossetians have won the conflict and i fell to see the point in widtholding recognition when South Ossetia won the conflict. Why claim what you cant control if you cant control what you claim? I think South Ossetia is deserving of a box .Vital component 05-19-2004 4:40 AM (EST)

Personal opinions are frankly irrelevant here - South Ossetia is not a recognised independent state. However, I agree that it deserves an infobox, as a national subentity - I think the current box is fine. -- ChrisO 10:20, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

South Ossetia is not an independent state and will not be for a couple of reasons:

First of all, Russian supported separatist government in Tskhinvali does not ask for independence, instead they want to become a part of Russia;
And, second, it is a historical Georgian territory, still partially populated by ethnic Georgians and controlled by the Georgian government. Therefore, for Russians to annex South Ossetia, they may have to ethnically cleanse the remaining Georgian population there, which, hopefully, the international community will not allow them to do so, nor the current Georgian government will surrender without putting up a fight like they did in 1991 after Yeltsin’s threats to bomb Tbilisi.

--128.174.155.119

That doesn't really matter in the context of a discussion that seems to be based around whether South Ossetia is worthy of an article or not. DMcMPO11AAUK/Talk/Contribs 13:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone kno the political parties of the presidents kokoity or Chibirov or Torez Kulumbegov or Znaur Nikolayevich Gassiyev ? ANY info on the latter two would be nice..Vital component

Kokoity leads the Unity Party, and Gassiyev belongs to it. Kulumbegov led the South Ossetian Popular Front. I don't think that Chibirov had a party, as such. --Jonathan Kulick

Hi ChrisO, Could you please reference the source of "In April 1922, following fierce fighting between White Russian and Soviet forces the "South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast" (i.e. district) was formed." Something wrong there in terms of the timeline. Also, "fierce" sounds to me like POV and translation from embellished Russian (Soviet) textbooks. Kober's formulation seems more logical and clear to me as I remember Ossietians got an autonomy status thanks to a red army installed Bolshevik government in Tbilisi, in particular the guy named Sergo Orjonikidze. They might have supported Reds against Whites, and that eventually helped them to lobby for an autonomy status like in the case of Lakoba and Abkhazians, but again they could not achieve an autonomous district status without Bolsheviks sitting in Tbilisi. I'd suggest to remove the reference to "fierce fighting" and have a neutral formulation - In April 1922 South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast was formed. Thanks, bjs. thanks, bjs

[edit] Economist article link

Don`t you think the style of Economist is a bit out of place here? All this american "enjoy the fruits of your new post-soviet freedom" crap is quite irrelevant to the actual way of perception of former Soviet bloc people. The articles in the Georgia and Caucasus section are all superbly written and after I clicked on that link the text was really irritating. It`s just too gullible. Any arguments against removing it? Koliokolio 19:38, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes. It's a detailed and interesting article, and removing links because you disagree with them is not on. Ambi 00:33, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] comments

I would say that the article is not neutral and rather inaccurate. The author comments that though it is not recognized, it deserves a separate box. It could have its separate box but the question is to call everything their internationally recognized names. So It is not a republic but a breakaway region and it is ridiculous to put all the state symbols there.

Also a short comment on the history section. Before the Russian anexation of Georgia "South Ossetia" did not simply exist. There were no Ossetian settlements in that region and were artificially created later on.

[edit] List of unrecognized countries

User:Irakliy81 has made some major changes to the description of Abkhazia and South Ossetia on List of unrecognized countries. Here's the diff: [1]

I'm not sure how NPOV the old and new versions are, so comments are most welcome. -- ran (talk) 22:34, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tskhinval vs tskhinvali

Dear Author, my compliments to you. Fair and truly neutral article. However, do you agree that you should change the capital to Tskhinvali? Officially, the city name is Tskhinvali and not Tskhinval. By removing the last "i" it still does not take away Georgian meaning. The whole word is derived from Georgian anyway. In National Geographic, Britanica and in many other reliable sources the place is called Tskhinvali and I think you should go by the official name rather than the version offered by separatists. Thanks again, Luis Dingley Noxch Borz 18:40, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV pushing

Rebecca, cease implementing pro separatist/pro-Russian POVs on the article. By adding Russian as official language and calling the region as ‘Republic” you demonstrate:

1. Russian nationalist POV 2. Promoting Separatist agenda by labelling the region as "Republic" which is not internationally recognized (please respect the notion of international recognition and resolutions of UN, OSCE, and EU council) 3. You don’t have any respect for NPOV and make POV pushes based on your views, claims and un-sourced materials. 4. You are biased against Georgian side

Therefore, please review NPOV policy of Wikipedia and respect the 4 pillars which govern this web site.

I will not tolorate POV pushing for any agenda.

Thanks. Noxchi Borz 17:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Please don't make assumptions - I'm an Anglo-Australian not known for being sympathetic towards Russia. The current regime in Tshkinvali, whether rightly or wrongly, calls itself the "Republic of South Ossetia", and the article mentions this accordingly. This makes no astertions concerning whether it should or should not be a republic, and to this extent the article does mention quite clearly that it is internationally unrecognised. It also, as it should, mentions that the disputed territory lies in the Georgian province of Shida Kartli.

As for the language issues, the article is not about Shida Kartli. The infobox states that it is the "de facto official languages" - those of the self-proclaimed entity in Tshkinvali, not the official languages of Shida Kartli, which would go in that article. As such, the official languages pertaining to this article are Ossetian and Russian.

Kober's edits, on the other hand, are great. He's cleaned up a lot of badly written text, and done so in a relatively neutral manner. Rebecca 04:20, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Rebecca Im sorry, I might have over reacted but the whole article seemed to me as Separatist POV promotion. There is no such thing as Republic of South Ossetia officially and her existence is contradicted by many resolutions of UN, OSCE, etc. I respect and maintain my allegiance to United Nations and her resolutions. It is very important to keep these resolutions effective. You can not have two articles talking about one region or republic. This is redundancy. If you want to be fair and maintain NPOV, there should be one article on Shida Kartli which will have section of De facto regime of S. Ossetian Republic. Being involved in Caucasian affairs at York University I have some background on this subject. I’m ready to co-operate too and make a constructive dialogue, which will help us to create a fair and NPOV article for Wiki readers. I will rv my changes and we can start editing together. I hope Kober can join us. My apologies again. Regards. BTW what do you like about Canadians?:) Noxchi Borz 13:51, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

You're getting a couple of things mixed up there. There is verifiably a separatist regime in Tshkinvali that calls itself the Republic of South Ossetia. It is not, however, recognised by the United Nations - and that is why the article mentions quite prominently that it is in fact an unrecognised regime.

We can and do have many articles concerning overlapping regions (c.f. Basque Country, Kurdistan), and this instance is a prime example of why. Shida Kartli and South Ossetia do not cover the same territory, and it would be taking a pro-Georgian perspective to merge the two. Rather, it is quite possible to have a perfectly neutral article discussing the South Ossetian situation, and a much less controversial article on Shida Kartli discussing the broader Georgian province. Rebecca 03:04, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

No objections to that. Thanks a lot Rebecca for your input. All the best. Noxchi Borz 18:47, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

What a breakaway territory calls itself and what it is considered de jure are two different things. One is wishful thinking, one is fact. The intro text about it being a "republic" cannot stay. — Pēters J. Vecrumba 00:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anthem

The anthem of this place should be added to the article. Badagnani 23:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Currency

Georgian lari is not accepted as legal tender in South Ossetia. The same is stated in the Georgian lari article. To claim otherwise is a factual inaccuracy. The infobox was edited accordingly. Óðinn 07:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, Geo lari is still widely circulated throughout the reigon, especially in the Georgian-controlled villages around Tskhinvali. Furthermore, the term "legal" is not very helpful there as S. Ossetia itslef is not a legal entity. --Kober 08:13, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, US dollar is also widely circulated throughout Georgia. But that doesn't make it its currency, now does it? Furthermore, being a not internationally recognized entity is not akin to being an illegal entity. And South Ossetia's de-facto government does not recognize lari at all when it comes to the budget expenditures, revenues, etc. Óðinn 08:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I edited the infobox using the Kosovo article as a precedent Óðinn 08:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image captioning

The word "boevik" does not exist in English language. Captioning for this image should be corrected Óðinn 08:06, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Agree. I changed it into "militant".--Kober 08:13, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

"Militant" means fighting or warring. I don't see the subject on the photo in question being either. Perhaps the author of the image could elaborate more on the details Óðinn 08:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] South Ossetian Coat of Arms

Why was the image deleted?.. Óðinn 20:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] De-facto

Enough with that already. No other article on an unrecognized nation on WP has "de-facto" and "de-jure" in every sentence. Neither should this one. Only Georgian authorities have some sort of obsession in referring to South Ossetian and Abkhazian secessionist governments as "de-facto authorities". To introduce this sort of jargon on WP is an obvious POV pushing. Óðinn 08:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

You obviously forgot that the UN and OSCE also have such obsessions. --Kober 08:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Please respect and comply with Wikipedia policy on NPOV and try stay away from POV implementations. Ldingley 14:12, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Please follow your own advice. Also, unless you are willing to put "de-facto" into the infoboxes of all the unrecognized states on WP, you shouldn't touch this article either. Óðinn 00:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

These flag and coat of arms are not accepted either by the region’s Georgian population or internationally. The same goes to Abkhazia whence 250,000 Georgians are expelled as a result of ethnic cleansing. So it should somehow be mentioned that these symbols are used exclusively by the separatist regimes.

I corrected the language section in the infobox. The status of the Ossetic language has not yet been defined by the Georgian law though President Saakashvili’s peace plan includes a proposal to make it an official language of the region. It also appears that the unrecognized republic’s constitution (article 4; [2]) makes Georgian an official language alongside Ossetic and Russian. Kober 04:59, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] There is no evidence for Georgians claims

The Ethnolinguistic patchwork of the modern Caucasus - CIA map

But you need when you claim to be some thing; If it has any evidence and is not POV. It will show Georgian morality in an international scientific encyclopedia like Wikipedia. It is not a war. Please do not confuse.

Please do not erase ^{[citation needed]}.Add more references and evidences for your claims.

ZANDWEB T

Who gave you a right to speak about Georgian morality? Are you claiming that Georgians don't live in S. Ossetia? Or does it look very dubious that Alans migrated in the South Caucasus after Mongols destroyed their kingdom? This is basic textbook stuff, my friend, and you need to provide credible soucres that would claim otherwise. Please read more about the subject before posting senseless comments. --Kober 13:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

All offensive and discremenatory comments will be removed. Zandweb, please do not repeat discremenatory offenses and national attacks on Wikipedia. Ldingley 18:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Zandweb, please see the map that I posted to the right. One can see clearly that there are Georgians living mostly in eastern SO. —Khoikhoi 18:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Firstly: This map is related to 1995 and after 5 years is not valid for nowadays discussion. (Researchers rewrite all refrencess after 5 years and this document is compiled 12 years ago).

Secondly:

Your claim: South Ossetia (Ossetian: Республикӕ Хуссар Ирыстон, Respublikæ Xussar Iryston; Russian: Южная Осетия, Yuzhnaya Osetiya; Georgian: სამხრეთ ოსეთის ავტონომიური ოლქი, Samkhret Oseti Respublika (unofficial) is a self-proclaimed republic within the internationally recognized borders of Georgia. Although this former Soviet autonomous oblast (region) has declared its independence and is in de facto control of significant part of the region, its separation from Georgia has not been recognized by any other country and is regarded a de jure part of the Georgian region (mkhare) of Shida Kartli. As Georgia itself refuses to recognise the region as a distinct entity, the government doesn't use the name South Ossetia, but calls it by the medieval name of Samachablo or, more recently, Tskhinvali region (after the republic's capital).

This page was last updated on 7 September, 2006 [3]:

Ethnic groups:Georgian 83.8%, Azeri 6.5%, Armenian 5.7%, Russian 1.5%, other 2.5% (2002 census)

Languages:Georgian 71% (official), Russian 9%, Armenian 7%, Azeri 6%, other 7% .note: Abkhaz is the official language in Abkhazia

Administrative divisions: 9 regions (mkharebi, singular - mkhare), 9 cities (k'alak'ebi, singular - k'alak'i), and 2 autonomous republics (avtomnoy respubliki, singular - avtom respublika) regions: Guria, Imereti, Kakheti, Kvemo Kartli, Mtskheta-Mtianeti, Racha-Lechkhumi and Kvemo Svaneti, Samegrelo and Zemo Svaneti, Samtskhe-Javakheti, Shida Kartli . cities: Chiat'ura, Gori, K'ut'aisi, P'ot'i, Rust'avi, T'bilisi, Tqibuli, Tsqaltubo, Zugdidi . autonomous republics: Abkhazia or Ap'khazet'is Avtonomiuri Respublika (Sokhumi), Ajaria or Acharis Avtonomiuri Respublika (Bat'umi) .note: the administrative centers of the two autonomous republics are shown in parentheses.

Disputes - international:Russia and Georgia agree on delimiting 80% of their common border, leaving certain small, strategic segments and the maritime boundary unresolved; OSCE observers monitor volatile areas such as the Pankisi Gorge in the Akhmeti region and the Argun Gorge in Abkhazia; UN Observer Mission in Georgia has maintained a peacekeeping force in Georgia since 1993; Meshkheti Turks scattered throughout the former Soviet Union seek to return to Georgia; boundary with Armenia remains undemarcated; ethnic Armenian groups in Javakheti region of Georgia seek greater autonomy from the Georgian government; Azerbaijan and Georgia continue to discuss the alignment of their boundary at certain crossing areas.

Upon this newly and fresh document today, Ossetic language, is not used in any part of Georgia and that regions that you had claimed are inhabitted by Ossetians are not part of Georgia. In other hand Respublika Xussar Iryston is not part of Georgia.

Now I am ready to hear Khoikhoi.

ZANDWEB T.

Firstly, your source doesn't mention SO as part of Georgia because the entity has no official status and the term itself is not officially used. It is de jure part of Shida Kartli province which is properly listed among the regions of Georgia. Secondly, CIA doesn't mention Ossetic language because it is spoken by less than 1% of Georgia's population. FYI, acording to 2002 Georgia census 38,028 Ossetians live in other regions of Georgia (outside SO), primarily in the capital of Tbilisi, also Imereti region and Borjomi district. They are fully integrated into Georgia's multinational society and engage in political and social life. Ossetians are members of Georgian parliament; An ethnic Ossetian officer commands Georgian air forces; the Association of the Ossetians of Georgia is a very active NGO in Tbilisi which promotes Ossetic cultural activities and advocates closer Georgian-Ossetian intercommunal relations.

Detailed map of SO

It is obvious that you lack basic knowledge about the subject. Please just do some Googling for South Ossetia, obtain more serious info and then return to the discussion. Hope this helps. --Kober 05:01, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Here's a map from the International Crisis Group website clearly showing Ossetian and Georgian villages around Tskhinvali.--Kober 05:44, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project?

I'm just wondering whether the creation of Wikipedia:WikiProject Ossetia, Portal:Ossetia, and Template:Ossetia-geo-stub has ever been proposed or disucssed. I think Zandweb's unilateral decisions don't particularly meet Wikipedia's guidlines. --Kober 04:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I've left a message on his talk page. —Khoi khoi 04:43, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

OK. Thanks. I have nothing against him or his participation in the project, but his edits are really very questionable. Kober 04:57, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

არაფრის. You might consider adding this at Talk:North Ossetia-Alania as well. —Khoi khoi 05:00, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Thanks :) Kober 05:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't see where else to sugg this so I do ti here: Geography sub-heading - this should maybe be further up the page? It comes as sort of random so late in the article.

[edit] Kober's last edit

I'm not reverting this one, because it fixed a lot of text that was simply crap, but it also worsened the pervasive pro-Georgian bias in this article. Set out the facts and let people make up their own mind - don't start from the mindset that the South Ossetian authorities are an evil to be expunged. Rebecca 06:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Please present evidence of "pro-Georgian" bias, present references and sources for any claims made to contradict or accuse the content as bias. Also show us where in this article the separatist regime in S. Ossetia is identified as evil?

If something does not suit your views or POVs, it does not mean that information or content is biased or inaccurate. Before accusations, it would be more productive if you could follow the proper procedures and offer us a reliable contradiction. Thanks. Ldingley 15:49, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Oddily both of you are right, this is a subject of dispute and you both recognise that, please don't discribe anyones edits as 'crap', even if they are in your opinion. Mark us street Nov22 2006.

[edit] Date of indepedence

Did South Ossetia declare independence on November 28, 1991, as the main Wikipedia article on the country claims, or on September 20, 1990, as is frequently cited in scholarly articles and in this Wikipedia article Georgian-Ossetian_conflict#Origins_of_the_Conflict? It is also worth noting that September 20 appears to be the day chosen by the South Ossetian state as its independence day.

[edit] Lack of ethnic Georgians voting

Apparently, there has been ethnic discrimination leading to the vote itself: ethnic Georgians residing in the area couldn't vote. Darth Sidious 23:40, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Referendum organised by Union for National Salvation of Ossetians (UNSO)

Here is a link. I am not familiar with Osetia, I just put here the link for some other editors who want to use the information for the main space. Pro-Ossetian authorities emerging in South Ossetia--MariusM 15:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

This link didn't open for me Buffadren 13:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] See This

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Abkhazia#Abkazia_land_of_Georgia —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.72.153.232 (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2007 (UTC).

I understand his sentiment but the Abkhazia page is at Abkazia and not here. He needs to make contibutons and not comments. perhepa direct him to simple English Buffadren 13:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV deletions

This is going out of hand again. Im really tired of anti-Georgian hysteria which devastates Wiki articles based on political views, ideologies, nationalism, POV pushing, personal agendas, etc. This is a neutral encyclopaedia and not some political propaganda tool to enforce the views of some countries expansionist ambitions (Russia for example). If you delete or remove a valid correction which was added, United nations or OSCE recognition of Georgian jurisdiction, territorial integrity and so on, you should provide valid and reliable sources which will contradict the international law (which in my opinion is absurd) and support your claims and political ambitions. Otherwise, do not delete valuable information from the article and do not mislead the reader who has no background in the issue. I have detected for a long time the certain Russian users use their strong pro-separatist sentiments and use it fully to cause harm for this encyclopaedia and integrity of its content. This is no place for politics, nationalist sentiments or expansionist vision against another sovereign country and its territorial unity. Therefore, before I appeal to administrators (Russian admin like Alex Bakharev, who has been an example of NPOV) for mediation, it would be mostly productive if we all work together and avoid deletions which are important for the content. Ldingley 15:38, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Are you accusing Buffadren of being pro-Russian? Look at his user page then :).

I mostly support the current edition. The only exception is the phrase 'integral part of Georgia constitution'. How can a territory be part of a constitution?? Regards. Alaexis 16:55, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alternative Government of South Ossetia

Although we should refrain from showing our emotions and we should be absolutely neutral, I will say that Alternative Government sounds really funny! Does anyone know any Alternative Governments worldwide? -- Taamu. 15:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC). Happy Valentine's Day!

The same to you! The funniest thing is that the Georgians themselves don't recognise this "government" they'd created. You know, they refer to S. Ossetia as the northern part of Shida (or Kvemo, not sure) Kartli. Alaexis 15:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I don’t find it that funny. Sanakoyev’s government is referred to as "alternative" in most mainstream media sources. The article just reflects this fact. Moscow doesn’t recognize Kokoity’s "government" either, but this doesn’t prevent the Russians from turning Tskhinvali into a military barrack and a smugglers’ paradise. So, I don’t see the point of Alex’s sarcasm. Kober^Talk 07:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Kober, as I understood you don't support any idea of South Ossetia's recognition [as an independent state]. So why then you support so-called Alternative Government of South Ossetia? -- Taamu. 17:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Alaexis, for your information. -- Taamu.

I don't support either of these governments simply because none of them are real decision-makers in the region. I'd like to see a truly democratic government in Tskhinvali that would guarantee the rights of Ossetian and Georgian peoples within largely autonomous Tskhinvali region/South Ossetia within the unified Georgian state. Unlike Abkhazia, there is no real ethnic hatred between Georgians and Ossetians who had lived there in peace for centuries. The problem is purely political and the key to it is in... you know where, don't you? --Kober^Talk 17:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

BTW, this alternative government is neither de facto nor de jure a Georgian autonomous republic. The South Ossetian autonomy was abolished in 1989 and has not been legally re-established. Óðinn 22:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

And since this entity has no de jure or de facto power, why is it even mentioned in the infobox?.. I mean, I can declare myself an "alternative" Duke of York. Should I therefore edit the Duke of York article to reflect that?.. Óðinn 22:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Wish you best of luck with your venture. Still, this "alternatives" did not only declared themselves as government, but they were elected in the villages not controlled by the separatists. Sanakoyev has the same level of legitimacy as Mr Kokoity: both of them are "elected", self-declared, unrecognized, and puppets.--Kober^Talk 04:55, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you seriously believe that Sanakoyev (an Ossetian) was elected by the Georgian population of S. Ossetia? Alaexis 07:11, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, haven't noticed the inverted commas around the word 'elected'. You must believe Kokoity is not really elected by Ossetians then. In this case I have no questions. Alaexis 07:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

what are the sources, like media, academic sources, that refer to the strange alternative government? does it provide any services, does it have any functions of a real government like making laws and controlling police, army, or is it like a government in exile that doesnt really do anything except claim to be a government ??? Pernambuco 17:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The alternative government has been formed by the former members of the secessionist camp and its leader had fought Georgian troops early in the 1990s. He served as a prime minister and defense minister under the unrecognized S. Ossetian president Chibirov. Subsequently, he left Tskhinvali as a result of inter-clan conflict in S. Ossetia. With unofficial support from Georgia, the alternative government has now assumed some functions of local administration. It does not posses any army and has not even appointed defense minister. Police and security service are provided by Georgia. The declared aims of this government are to facilitate Georgian-Ossetian reconciliation and negotiate S. Ossetia's future status with the government of Georgia. Here're your sources: [4], [5], [6], [7], etc. --Kober^Talk 17:36, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Where exactly did they establish 'some functions of local administration'? In Ossetian-populated areas or in Georgian-populated areas? Both variants seem very improbable to me, although I can be mistaken. Alaexis 17:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course, you are mistaken; and mislead by nationalist and irredentist propaganda of Putinite regime.

In both Georgian and Ossetian areas not controlled by the Tskhinvali regime. Of course, their authority is quite limited, but they have already started to play more active role in the regional politics. Eg., Sanakoyev met CoE Commissioner for Human Rights Thomas Hammarberg today.[8] Recently, they helped to diffuse the "tangerine crisis" on the road to North Ossetia.[9].--Kober^Talk 18:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Am I right to deduce from your post that there is at least 1 (one) Georgian village controled not by Georgian government but by alt. SO government? Alaexis 18:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

No. I think both Georgian and alt. SO governments share the control over some villages in the conflict zone. At least, this is how the situation is reported by media.--Kober^Talk 18:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, it seems to me 'sharing' is limited to putting Ossetian flag alongside Georgian ones. Alaexis 19:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

To Kober: unfortunatly, I don't. But I guess you meant Russia. Russia has all rights to protect her citizens, to be involved in the process. I understand Georgia. She tries to maintain the unity of the state. But by what means? Georgian President once promissed to grand the autonomous status to SO, but as I know, according to the Georgian maps SO doesn't even exist. -- Taamu. 11:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Georgia cannot unilaterally grant an autonomous status to Tskhinvali. It should be a subject of bilateral or multilateral negotiations. However, Georgia's government has recently decided to set up a provisional administrative unit in the region, a prerequisite to autonomy. Mr. Sanakoyev seems to be a reasonable guy even though he fought against Georgians in the early 1990s. He is rapidly gaining credibility among local Georgians and Ossetians. Atavistic mafia clans, eg that of Kokoiti, and their patrons in the Kremlin are clear obstacles to a peaceful settlement to the conflict.

[edit] Biased article

Why are there quotes by some US or EU politicians and NONE by Ossecians? It is there counry after all. It is not part of the US and EU. Why only EU view of the referendum is presented and NEITHER Ossecian or Russian views? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.230.36.222 (talk) 02:39, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

True enough. Alaexis 05:29, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll tell you why. Because the one who has power (US and EU) and allies, has the right vision on everythig (even if it's not right). And if you try to argue, you will only show that you are a "narrow-minded" person. Taamu

[edit] Dumb questions

Sanakoev is now head of the Provisional Administrative Entity of South Ossetia. What's the de jure status of this entity inside Georgia? Is it inside of any mkhare or separate from all of them? What's written in the laws?

De facto is no less important than de jure ). What part of former autonomous republic does this entity control and how is its control exercised? Alaexis 16:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

De facto can always change (especially in Caucasus), de jure if supported by international organizations will endure for good. Dmitry Sanakoev profited more than any other Ossetian separatist or authority; not only he is facto leader of Ossetians (divided from Kokoity club centered in Tskhinvali only, along with ethnic Georgian population of SO) but now obtained de jure status. Ldingley 19:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

BTW, SO is not controlled fully by de facto authorities. Due to resent Sanakoev (former PM and Defence minister of the separatists) split, they only include Tskhinvali and three villages around, the rest: Java (Sanakoev home town), Tamarasheni, Eregvi, Kurta etc are under Sanakoev control. Its more like patches of land all over SO controlled by those camps. Ldingley 19:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Java is not controlled by the RSO authorities??? Could you present some proof? Alaexis 10:13, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Here's quote from Georgian source:

“

The Java district is the secessionist authorities’ stronghold in the north of South Ossetia. The Eredvi-based CEC claimed that it had polling stations in Java as well.

”

So even Georgia admits that Dzau is a "separatist stronghold", while Eredvi CEC only claims to have polling stations there. Alæxis_¿question? 17:30, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'll repeat my questions. What's the de jure status of this entity inside Georgia? Is it inside of any mkhare or separate from all of them? What's written in the laws? Alaexis 10:11, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

"Provisional" means that the status is not yet fully legalized. You cannot write something that is "provisional" in the laws. Rather, the new administration is a transitional step to the restoration of autonomy the exact status of which will be a subject of further negotiations between the Georgian and Ossetian politicians (incuding Kokoity if he is not inclined to continue his reckless politics and the blockade of Georgian villages). Sanakoyev has already gained popularity both among Ossetians and Georgians (in spite of your earlier sarcasm about an "Ossetian being elected by Georgians"). Many Ossetians are still suspicious of Georgia's proposals, but not outrightly opposed to them. It's up to the Georgian government and Sanakoyev to assure the Ossetians that their rights will be guaranteed in a reunified Georgia. The ice has begun to retreat, but I'm afraid Kokoity's clan and his patrons in Moscow will do everything possible to thwart the Georgian-Ossetian reconciliation process. --Kober^Talk 10:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

No legal status, in other words. Just as I thought. So it has no advantage against RSO here and we should compare de facto status of these entities. Alæxis_¿question? 17:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying that the decision passed by the Parliament of Georgia and signed by the President has no legal power? The status of the entity is not written in the organic law/constitution because Sanakoyev's government is provisional. I don't quite clearly understand what do you want to say. --Kober^Talk 18:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I understand it's not in the constitution. I asked 'What's written in the laws?'. The decision passed by the Parliament is a law, isn't it? I'm genuinely interested what's the current legal status of this entity. Alæxis_¿question? 18:22, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

My fault… I have not explained clearly enough, I guess. That’s because I am far from being an expert in jurisprudence. The Provisional Government appears to have been set up by the Presidential decree, not by the Parliament’s decision.[10] I’m not quite sure whether this sort of stuff can be qualified as law, but it does have a distinct legal power.--Kober^Talk 19:34, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

The status of the Provisional Administration is still kind of vague to me. Is the text of that president's decree (or its summary which is even better) available on the internet somewhere? Alæxis_¿question? 19:26, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Provisional Administration means:

1. Public-political circles in the conflict zone are invited to participate in the conflict resolution process and the defining of the final status of the former autonomous region. 2. The Georgian leadership signals that it is willing and prepared to temporarily delegate its powers to local public and political groups, which will make up the administration of the “provisional administrative-territorial entity”. 3. Apart from the implementation of the delegated functions and responsibilities, and participation in the conflict resolution process, the provisional administration has to coordinate international and humanitarian programs in the region. 4. The law gives legitimacy to the idea of restoring the autonomous South Ossetian region and paves the way for a reasonable and mutually acceptable compromise on the autonomy’s name.

In a nutshell, the law creates legitimate preconditions for cooperation between the Georgian government and the forces that favour the Georgian-Ossetian political unity and gives the local public a voice in the conflict resolution process. If the goal is achieved successfully, powerful integrated Georgian-Ossetian groups of stakeholders may emerge in the region, eliminating, or at least weakening, the ethnic dimension of the conflict. Subsequently, this will help create social, political and economic preconditions for a final settlement of the conflict. Finally, the phenomenon of Sanakoyev and the president’s new initiative tend to demonstrate that the conflict zone is not clearly divided along ethnic lines. In fact, the picture is much more complex and requires respective approaches from the international community. see also www.civil.ge Ldingley 20:15, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greater part

Is this map enough or not? If not I'll find something else. Alæxis_¿question? 20:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

How can i tell that those Ossetian villages (all) are controlled by Tskhinvali? Im just woundering Alex, nothing more. Ldingley 20:16, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

“

Since then, South Ossetia, with the exception of a few villages controlled by the Georgian government in Tbilisi, has been run as a de facto independent state, although its proclamations of independence have been ignored by the international community.

”

From here. Alæxis_¿question? 20:31, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Attention all who thinks that few dozen people can create countries within countries. It is obvious that these people have emigrated from different parts of the world or nearby mountains and settled down in this country. Some stayed in Russia and some were granted citizenship in Georgia many years ago. Now you tell me what will happen if Armenians declare independence of Avlabar, Kurds Gldani or Romans Navtlugi Bazar and Vagzal.

You know what's funny? Russians do not even call it North Ossitia any more. In today's Pravda they quoted that Kokoiti went to Kabardo Balkaria to see his brother Koko Genocide LOL. If kabardos want to live in Russia why they just do not move there. And who cares how many Russians live there. Millions of Russians live on Brighton Beach in New York, so should we grant independence to Brighton so that they could build a bridge to Russian federation?

I cannot believe that these two pains in one place fool so many people. Do not you see that they are from one special Soviet Institution? - FQUAL!

[edit] tags

I use them wherever I feel that citation is needed but absent. I believe it's the way they're supposed to work... Alæxis_¿question? 12:46, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Old citation needed tags

Should that Roki tunnel one at the end that says that South Ossetia gets a third of it's income from the Roki tunnel also come off?

[edit] Maps

“

Its a pity no map shows which areas of South Ossetia are ruled by whom

”

That's not quite true. Look there, please - there are all kinds of maps of South Ossetia in that category. This 2007 map (also from the ICG report), for example, shows who controlled what according to the Joint Peacekeeping forces. Alæxis_¿question? 07:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Alexis for the map. I never knew one existed. It is not shown on the article for South Ossetia at all. Maybe, someone will add it to the South Ossetia article. Yes, I am the anonymous 24.87.XX.XX user who reworded the South Ossetia article. Sometimes I forget to log in when I make a contribution. Your rewording of my suggested changes to my article was well done! Cheers, Alexis. Leoboudv (talk) 07:25, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] McCain

I also don't understand why was McCain's opinion chosen to be mentioned in the article. Other statements in this section were made by CoE Secretary General and EU Special Representative to the South Caucasus while McCain is just a US senator. Let's replace it with some official US statement wrt SO. Alæxis_¿question? 18:14, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Well Alex, according to Mykoyans logic I can remove then tons of data from Abkhazia article which derive from Russian sources. It makes a valid poit and Mr McCain is not a figure to ignore. For the Georgian side, his remarks define the situation in SO close to reality. That passage is sourced and helped others to understand better how others view this conflict (besides Duma statements and Zirinovsky's despotic euphoria). Because it does not suit Mykoyans POV, it does not mean that the passage is irrelevant to the topic, on contrary. And surely you agree with him, lets be frank, you are not here as a NPOV editor :) He is official enough. Thanks for suggestion. Iberieli (talk) 03:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

It is already stated that no country recognizes South Ossetia, we don't need to supplement this with cherry picked propaganda opinion that make Georgians like Iberieli feel good. Putting only McCain's quote is POV pushing and violates WP:NPOV, otherwise we would have to put the other side per NPOV. It is better to have no POV pushing opinion quotes at all, from either side, and stick with non-POV things like "no country recognizes South Ossetia". --Miyokan (talk) 04:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I don’t think we should get rid of everything that makes Russians like Miyokan feel bad. You seem to be particularly irritated by the senator’s comment on modern Russia’s political idol. Please provide more valid reasons for your stereotypical edits.--Kober^Talk 04:49, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not the one fighting to keep in a pro-South Ossetian/"Russian" opinion quote. I will post it again for you. Putting only McCain's quote is POV pushing and violates WP:NPOV, otherwise we would have to put the other side per NPOV. It is better to have no POV pushing opinion quotes at all, from either side, and stick with non-POV pushing things like "no country recognizes South Ossetia".--Miyokan (talk) 05:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I see that POV pushing by this biased user will go on, he does not present any viable reason for removal of that information. Until then, it will be restored in accordance to 2 or 3RR rule. Until Mikoyan presents viable reasoning behind his blunt POV pushing and reaches consensus among the users, McCain quote stays. Meantime, I added the international reaction section were any quote by any official (from Russia or US) can be attached. This will be helpful for any reader to understand the reality of SO in the context of international community. Thanks. Iberieli (talk) 20:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

You can claim that I haven't provided justification all you want just because you cannot rebut it and don't like it. I will post it again for you. Putting only McCain's quote is POV pushing and violates WP:NPOV, otherwise we would have to put the other side per NPOV. It is better to have no POV pushing opinion quotes at all, from either side, and stick with non-POV pushing things like "no country recognizes South Ossetia". It is already stated that no country recognizes South Ossetia, the McCain quote adds no new information and merely serves to violate NPOV.--Miyokan (talk) 03:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC).

[edit] Provisional Administrative Entity of South Ossetia

Far too much emphasis is give to the above entity in this article. That entity has about four times the space of the actually Govt. of South Ossetia. There is no evidence that the above entity has any sort of jurisdiction and legitimacy. Last I checked, South Ossetia isn't being offered the same sort of autonomy as Abkhazia and it has been absorbed into Shida Kartli as far as the Georgians are concerned. Per WP:WEIGHT this entity should be removed from the opening paragraph, the section describing this entity needs to be reduced in size. I don't see the need for quoting Sanakoev's acceptance speeches in that section. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:07, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Heh any time there is some dispute, you suddenly appear with your POVs and deletion policy. Thanks Proco but you are wrong, there are plenty of sources for that and if there is not enough information about so called "republic" its not our fault. Nothing will be removed from any paragraph and if you do so its simply POV pushing and vandalism buddy. PAE of South Ossetia exists and represent the official body of South Ossetia, unlike Kokoity regime. p.s more refs were added and more will come soon. Iberieli (talk) 02:11, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Just look at the article itself: "Per Eklund, Head of the European Commission Delegation to Georgia said that “None of the two alternatives do we consider legitimate [in South Ossetia]" Sanakoyev isn't considered legitimate internationally and is there even a source that Georgia considers him legitimate? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:32, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Georgia has no authority over South Ossetia and never will with 99% of South Ossetians wanting independence, with each year it remains independent is less and less likely to be incorporated into Georgia. Start living in the real world, per WP:WEIGHT it should be reduced to reflect this accordingly.--Miyokan (talk) 03:32, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Miyokan, this is supposed to be encyclopedia not a crystal ball. Please bring your prophecy to Russian nationalist chatrooms and adhere to NPOV insteaed of delivering lectures on how we should live. As for Poco’s mass deletions, they typically reflect the Kremlin’s current grievances and thus are a promotion of one-sided POV.--Kober^Talk 03:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course I was not for adding that "South Ossetia will never be part of Georgia", that is my opinion. I am quite sympathetic to Georgia's predicament, as am I to Serbia's, and Russia had its own situation with Chechnya, but I live in the real world. My point was that the Provisional Administrative Entity is a joke with no legitimacy and everyone knows this, artificially created to make it look like theres a schism between Ossetians.--Miyokan (talk) 03:52, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

You can't speak for “everyone”, so don't attempt to. You are naturally recapitulating what your government says. We all have our opinions, but Wikipedia talk pages are not the right place to discuss them, especially when they are expressed in an inflammatory tone.--Kober^Talk 04:06, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Mikoyan, your argument are typical anti-Georgian POVs and m not going even to answer them. Proco, i havent seen any reference where international community does not recognize Sakavoevs authority as legal. Please provide sources other than Russian. I provided 5 sources so far, you NONE. Also i would suggest you to move into constructive attitute rather than disruptive. Anti-Georgian blabber like that of Mikoyan is not a way solve things Proco. Present sources with specific indications and we'll act accordingly. Iberieli (talk) 21:46, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I already pointed you to Per Eklunds statement that neither goverments are considered legit. I haven't even seen a single source that shows the "Provision Authority" has a mandate to do anything, has any authority whatsoever, or is even considered legit by Georgia. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I statement not enough, more sources are needed to support your POVs. That article was just an opinion. Its not a supportive source. Sorry. Iberieli (talk) 21:56, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that Civil Georgia is not a reliable source? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 15:28, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What this article is missing

excerpt from Kokoity's presidential oath
at least five Kokoity's statements
words of some Russian mp or senator about Sanakoyev

This way we'll achieve NPOV without deleting anything. Alæxis_¿question? 19:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Sure go ahead Alex nobody is preventing you from editing. I'll add more references, please give me time. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iberieli (talk • contribs) 21:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

As mentioned this article is blatantly skewed towards Georgian POV. Here are some numbers from searches: From Google:

Dimitry Sanakoyev 451 hits
Eduard Kokoity 16,600 hits

Provisional Administration of South Ossetia 121 hits
Salvation Union of South Ossetia 6 hits
Republic of South Ossetia 20,000 hits

As I mentioned before this article needs to greatly reduce the amount of space dedicated to the "provisional authority". I edited the infobox to correctly reflect that the provisional authority has no recognition but on second thought that infobox should be removed as you can't talk about this entity as a government when it's not governing anything. It can't even be considered a government in exile. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:12, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

No this is your POV and has nothing to do with reality. They do govern Georgian villages in South Ossetia and they were also elected. If you remove the info box, I'll be obliged to remove Kokoev info box due to the same logic you have presented. The google hits have nothing to do with the reality in South Ossetia. I included source and you can not ignore or discredit this authority simply because you dont like Georgians. It does not work like that. Whatever you said should be supported by sources, if not than this will lead into rv wars. None of us want that, so as I said before, instead of disruptive role on Georgian articles (please dont event attempt to downplay your anti-Georgian attitude here) you should learn to play a constructive role. Again, no sources, your claim are empty words and POVs. Iberieli (talk) 21:55, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Do you have anything else to contribute other than reverts and ad-hominem arguments? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 15:30, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Well right now I dont have any time. Too much work and exam preps. However, after series of POV deleting on this article by Mikoyan (removing Sanakoev quotes). I will come back to this article and fully edit it. If I find any sentence unsourced or with invalid source, it will be removed per Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. I will review all sources and their background. However, not at this moment, until than this article is disputed and unsourced. Thanks to everyone for your contributions.Iberieli (talk) 16:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Salvation_Union_of_South_Ossetia nominated for deletion

If you have something to add to this deletion discussion, please add it here. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 21:09, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Changes to the opening paragraph

I have changed the opening paragaph because it described what South Ossetia was (an autonomous oblast) and I have changed it to describe what South Ossetia is. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC)