Talk:South Australia

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[edit] Misc

Sorry, I shouldn't have used the rollback feature to revert 65.6.41.238's change of "Queen of Australia" to "Queen of England". Queen Elizabeth II has many titles. The proper one to use in this context is "Queen of Australia". See Queen of Australia and Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom#Titles. -- Tim Starling 01:53, May 19, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Addition of Ingenious Groups

Can we have links on this page to indigeneous groups of SA? I've added to the Kaurna article. I'm thinking about doing some more groups soon. Frances76 11:30, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sources for Proclamation Changes

There is no Murray River valley per se. Burden is on someone else to prove that there is and cite sources.

I added information about the establishment of the colony (otherwise how can the link between Europeans seeing the South Australian area and the modern state be made?), but more could be added. Sources for the Proclamation include:

Troy88 03:28, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your changes.--cj | talk 12:42, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "piping shrike"

I question the following sentence: While the term piping shrike in scientific circles is unknown it is colloquially referred to as the piping shrike in South Australia. It's more widely accepted name is the Magpie-lark.

The "Magpie-Lark", also known as the "Murray Magpie" (Grallina cyanoleuca) is a totally different bird to the larger Australian magpie. Official government descriptions of the state badge refer to the bird as a "White backed Magpie" (Gymnorhina tibicen leuconota).

I agree that the Murray Magpie and Australian Magpie are quite different birds However, it seems less clear exactly which is represented by the Piping Shrike. Even the department of Premier and Cabinet seems uncertain. State Badge of South Australia (copyright 1997) says "The Piping Shrike or White Backed Magpie (Gymnorhina tibicen leuconota) ...". Use of the Piping Shrike (PDF) dated June 2003 on the same website says "There has always been discussion on whether it is the common magpie or the Murray magpie and which ever it is, why is it called a Shrike?". I think most people on being asked to point to a "piping shrike" would point to the state badge. If asked to identify a bird of species "Grallina cyanoleuca" (by the questioner pointing at one or showing a picture), it would be called a Murray Magpie, and the same test on a white-backed magpie would get the response "Magpie", as we do not have black-backed magpies in South Australia. --Scott Davis Talk 23:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

For clarity's sake we must surely have just one or the other represented here. The South Australia page refers to the "Magpie-Lark" but the link to the flag refers to a "White backed shrike (Magpie)" and the link then refers to a page on the Australian magpie rather than the Murray magpie. If we must argue the point, that argument could be added to the page devoted to the flag. -- Unsigned.

The solution seems obvious to me. Someone should create the Piping Shrike page as a place where the controversy can be explained in full, and then pages to which the controversy has some relevance could simply link to it. Both of the complementary goals of Clarity and Truth would then be satisfied. (Incidentally, as I see it the primary evidence that the bird is a Murray Magpie is that it looks like one, and the primary evidence that the bird is a true Australian Magpie is that the name "piping shrike" implies a bird noted for the quality of its song - a pipe being a musical instrument - and Australian Magpie is indeed noted for its song whereas the Murry Magpie is not.) 203.63.92.110 16:09, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Essentially a city-state"?!

I was more than a little surprised to read this statement in the intro. Granted Adelaide dominates the state in terms of population and politics, but to claim this makes South Australia "essentially" a city-state is faintly ludicrous, especially if you read the city-state article and find it referring to places like Monaco and Singapore. A quick calculation using the population figures from Wikipedia's Adelaide and South Australia articles (which admittedly aren't from identical time periods, but close enough for these purposes) reveals that Adelaide can lay claim to just under 73% of the state's population, hardly the 90%+ I was expecting on the basis of this statement (even if I were willing to discount the problem of South Australia's vast land area). This is far from unique in the Australian context, as similar calculations for Melbourne's population as a proportion of that of Victoria and for Perth in Western Australia both yield just over 73%. In the absence of objections, I'll be editing this misleading reference out of the sentence in the near future. Thylacoleo 03:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The proportion can be as high as 80% depending on which definition of Adelaide is used. Nevertheless, I've cut the reference.--cj | talk 06:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, nice to see someone agrees! Thylacoleo 07:31, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] rv war

I have been in a revert war on this article, the has been a discussion on it here and here, what do you think? Myrtone

You missed that you're also trying to hold a discussion via the edit history! My edit comment ((South) Australian English!) was connected to a range of spelling and grammar edits, and also removed the German translation from the intro, which appears to be the issue you are concerned about.
The point is that in both the language of this wiki (The English Wikipedia) and the official and common language of the place being described (South Australia), the name is "South Australia". Nobody disputes that we had German-speaking migrants early in the history of the colony, but the German translation of the name does not belong at the top of the article. Is it "South Australia" or "Sudaustralien" in Barossa Deutsch? FWIW, one or two of my grandparents were educated in German in South Australia, even though their parents were also born here. I don't know if any schools now teach exclusively in German—do you? --Scott Davis Talk 13:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
From User talk:ScottDavis:
The problem for me is that those "countless other languages" were/are each spoken by *much* less than ten percent of the population, wheras German was once spoken by "ten percent" of the population, this is why I disagree with Michael (talk • contribs) about whether it deseaves primacy (whatever 'primacy' is). Myrtone
It would be more appropriate for this article to provide the translation in Pitjantjatjara and Kaurna than German, Barossa Deutsch, Italian, Vietnamese, Cornish, or Welsh, all of which have also been spoken by significant groups of migrants in the past. The last two may also have achieved 10% of the population in the 1850s (I don't know).
Note that I am not proposing any of those other languages in the introductory paragraph, and probably not anywhere else in the article. It is possible that something like These migrants referred to their new country as "Sudaustralien" could sensibly be added to History of South Australia near the section that talks about bringing their culture and language rather than just learning English. --Scott Davis Talk 09:31, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

"...translation of the name does not belong at the top of the article." As a matter of clarification, do you mean that it is rejected by consensus? I know of no policy or guideline that suggests that non-official languages shouldn't be emphasised like that, in fact I added that after reading a number of articles on Canadian Provences (Yes, Canada and Australia have so much in common, actually much more that most people in either country think). Basically, English and French language are the two offcial languages, but in all provences except Quebec, where French is the sole official language, and Neubauschweig (New Brunswick) where English and French are both official. Despite this, it seems that both the articles on Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island seem to have Galic notations in the lead despite it's lack of official status. Note however, I do not live in SA nor have I ever, I have been there a number of times and I have read about the history of it. Myrtone (☏) 01:21, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Given the number of people involved in reverting that addition at the time, yes, I think that was a consensus decision.
In Canada, both "French" and "English" are official languages at the federal/national level. In fact, there are several distinct groups of French-speaking people, each with their own dialects and histories. I note that the article on Canadian Gaelic says there are still people on Cape Breton Island (the northern part of Nova Scotia) and P.E.I. who speak Gaelic as a first language. As far as I know, there are no communities in SA where the first choice of language in the street is German. In parts of New Brunswick, it can be quite disorienting for an English-speaking Australian (with a bit of very dodgy high school French from a long time ago) to go from being served in English in one shop to going next door and finding I speak as much French as the server does English. In Montreal restaurants, tourists are greeted with "Bonjour-Hello", and the conversation continues in whichever language the customer chooses to answer in. The equivalent does not happen in Tanunda or Nuriootpa. --Scott Davis Talk 09:22, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Motto

Does anyone have a reference for the motto? I did a Google search [1], and almost exclusively Wikipedia mirros came out. The motto was added because it is listed at Goway.com, but I don't think that qualifies as a reliable source. PruneauT 20:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 4th largest state?

As only WA and QLD precede SA as larger states, SA should be mentioned as the 3rd largest state. The only reason i can think why its been listed as 4th is because of the Northern Territory. But the Northern Territory is not a state but a territory. --AussieBob 08:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

States and territories of Australia#Statistics says 4th largest. The text in this article is "...the fourth largest of Australia's states and territories", which appears to be correct (smaller than two states and one territory). --Scott Davis Talk 13:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject South Australia?

There is currently new state projects in development. See WP:WA. Perhaps it would be beneficial to your state. Fred 16:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Southern Ocean

In the Geography section reference is made to the Southern Ocean. Clearly from the definition of that ocean as well as the Indian Ocean, South Australia's coast is on the Indian Ocean. Perhaps a popular misconception? --Uxejn 15:47, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

It comes under general usage. The Antarctic treaty of 1961 called all waters south of 60°S the Southern Ocean and the International Hydrographic Organization made it official in 2000. The Southern Ocean Sancuary was established in 1994 and made the Southern Ocean "unofficially" all the waters south of 40°S except for where the Indian Ocean Whale sanctuary intrudes (where it is 55°S) and the waters between 50°W and 150°W where it remains at 60°S. Australian maps have always called the area south of 40° the Southern Ocean and the point where the Southern Ocean meets the Indian Ocean is "officially" Cape Leeunwin in Western Australia. Wayne 01:06, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
It's more than just popular perception, the sea is officially gazetted as the "Southern Ocean" in Australian jurisdictions.--cj | talk 02:21, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Acknowledging and recognising famous South Australians

As the author of the section ackowledging famous South Australians, I must respectfully disagree with Cyberjunkie's deletion of this section, and their comment that the links of the persons referred to in the article are "tenuous".

I would welcome further constructive debate ragarding this issue.

From my perspective, the section is factually accurate, and it is fair to include reference to famous persons in an article about a particular place. Fitzpatrickjm 14:26, 5 May 2007 (UTC) Fitzpatrickjm 14:27, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

As a contribution to this debate, here is a section I have reproduced from the Wikipedia article for the town of Blackburn in the UK. Fitzpatrickjm 15:10, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

People from Blackburn The following people were born or brought up in Blackburn:


[edit] The arts Musician, singer and composer Tony Ashton was born in Blackburn on 1 March 1946.[citation needed] Actor Michael Billington, star of UFO, was born in Blackburn. Writer Josephine Cox was born in Blackburn, setting many of her novels in Lancashire.[citation needed] Kathleen Ferrier, Opera Diva and gay icon, born Blackburn 1912, died London 1953 Music composer Barry Gray famous for the Thunderbirds march was born in Blackburn.[2] Wilfred Greatorex, writer and television script editor, was born in Blackburn on 27 May 1922.[citation needed] Nez Nolan - the human pea. Alfred Gregory, official photographer for the 1953 ascent of Mount Everest by Sir Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay, was born in Blackburn.[citation needed] Kathleen Harrison, one of the greatest British film character actresses of the Forties and Fifties, was born in Blackburn on 23 February 1892.[32] Broadcaster Russell Harty was born in the town on 5 September 1934.[citation needed] Fashion designer Wayne Hemingway spent most of his childhood in Blackburn, moving there after being born in Morecambe in 1961. He attended Queen Elizabeth's Grammar School, Blackburn.[33] Jason Kay of Jamiroquai, after being born in Manchester on December 30, 1969; moved to Blackburn before his singing career took off. Sarah Martin, violinist, singer, and songwriter for the independent Scottish band Belle & Sebastian, was born in Blackburn. Ruby Henderson (fashion connoisseur), spent her childhood in Blackburn but now resides in Paris, France. Currently contributes regularly to French Vogue. Attended Our Lady & St John Catholic Arts College. Actor Ian McShane was born in Blackburn on 29 September 1942 [3]. Sagar Mitchell and James Kenyon, pioneer cinematographers in the 1900s, were born here. Much of their film output still survives, see Mitchell and Kenyon. Actor Steve Pemberton was born in Blackburn in 1967.[34] Actress Wendi Peters was born in Blackburn on January 29th 1968.[citation needed] Lucy Quinn, famous for her contributions to the Feminist Art Movement, currently resides in the Little Harwood area of Blackburn. Alfred Wainwright, author of the Pictorial Guides to the Lakeland Fells, was born in the town. There is a plaque commemorating this fact at his former house on Audley Range. Actor Jon Walmsley was born in Blackburn on 6 February 1956.[citation needed] Film maker Michael Winterbottom was born in Blackburn, and also attended QEGS.[35]

[edit] Sports Everton striker James Beattie was brought up in Blackburn, attending Queen Elizabeth's Grammar School. Blackburn Rovers captain Ronnie Clayton was capped 35 times as an England international.[36] Keith Duckworth, motor racing engine designer. He designed the Cosworth DFV, which revolutionised Formula One in the 1960s. (1933-2005)[citation needed] Four times World Superbike Championship winner Carl Fogarty was born in Blackburn on 1 July 1966.[37] Bill Fox, chairman of Blackburn Rovers and president of the Football League until his death in 1991, was born in Blackburn on 6 January 1928.[citation needed] England Rugby union player Will Greenwood was born in Blackburn on 20 October 1972.[citation needed] Rock climber John Sumner was born in Blackburn on 13 March 1936. Sumner was the pre-eminent exploratory climber in his chosen domain of mid-Wales, climbing cutting-edge routes on the remote crags and cliff-faces south of Snowdonia starting in the mid-1950s.[38] The 1985 World Professional Snooker Champion Dennis Taylor moved to Blackburn from Northern Ireland in 1966 at the age of 17.[39]

[edit] Business The industrialist Jack Walker was born in the town on 19 May 1929. The steel magnate ploughed his fortune into his beloved Blackburn Rovers, leading to their Premier League title success in 1995.

[edit] Science Mathematician David Fowler was a leading authority on the history of mathematics in ancient Greece. Born in Blackburn on 28 April 1937, Fowler studied at the Russell School, near Morecambe Bay and Gonville and Caius College, Cambridge.[40] Arthur Maitland was a pioneering figure in laser physics research. At the University of St Andrews, he very quickly established a group working on gas lasers, recognising that the gas-discharge laser had enormous potential for practical use. He was born in Blackburn on 7 December 1928.[citation needed]

[edit] Politics

John Morley, British Liberal statesman, writer and newspaper editor, was born in Blackburn in 1838.John Morley, 1st Viscount Morley of Blackburn, OM, PC (1838 - 1923), Liberal statesman, writer and newspaper editor. Barbara Castle was an MP in Blackburn for 34 years (1945-1979)as well as holding the positions of Secretary of State for Employment and Productivity, First Secretary of State and Secretary of State for Social Services during the Labour governments of the sixties and seventies. Former Foreign Secretary and Leader of the Commons Jack Straw is MP for Blackburn.

I'm afraid I agree with cj. The quote above looks like a good example of stuff that shouldn't be in the Blackburn article either (see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS about deleting entire articles, but it applies here too). It looks slightly neater with the formatting in place at Blackburn#People_from_Blackburn, but still has far too much that is tenuous or requires reference. These kinds of information are OK for small towns where their main claim to fame is association with one or two famous people, but are unmaintainable, unverifiable and excessive for larger towns, cities or states. For SA, the list would need to have thousands of people on it, and still have arguments about who else should be in it.
Thankyou for being prepared to discuss edits in a mature manner. You might be surprised how often this doesn't happen. --Scott Davis Talk 23:19, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
I second what Scott has eloquently put above; that other articles have notable persons sections is not in of itself a valid reason to include one here – or indeed to maintain them elsewhere. --cj | talk 12:12, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
I suggest this matter can be resolved by adding a link to the list of Adelaide people- an existing section.Fitzpatrickjm 13:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Geography expansion?

Should not the geography section mention Hallett Cove and Ediacara? Hallett Cove is designated a Geological Monument of world significance which should rate it a mention and Ediacara is a major site almost as sigificant. I wrote a paragraph for each (Hallett Cove 77 words and Ediacara 44) but thought I'd float it here first. Wayne 02:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

If you've written 44 words, they would probably benefit the Ediacara Hills article itself, and Hallett Cove Conservation Park article has links to it, but doesn't yet exist at all. I'm not sure whether either is really important enough to the state for this article. They perhaps would rate a mention in a Geography of South Australia article, which we appear not to have yet, but would be the partner for Category:Geography of South Australia. --Scott Davis Talk 13:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Football Crowds Comments

It is staed that of the South Australian AFL teams that both reguarly draw large crowds. The crows nearly always draw large crowds. While the power occasionally draw slightly above average crowds Squirrelflu 11:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SA Flag

The original SA flag was a blue ensign defaced with a disc encompassing Britania meeting the natives. Should this be added to the article? Ozdaren 09:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Added Adelaide Festival of Arts

I have added Adelaide Festival of Arts under See Also Section. Kathleen.wright5 03:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)