Talk:Souterrain

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[edit] Moved parenthetical criticisms to this talk page

I'm no expert. These criticisms seem to merit consideration, but they do not belong in the article in it's current format. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lanser84 (talk • contribs) 15:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Souterrain is a name given by archaeologists to a type of underground structure associated with the Atlantic Iron Age. Regional names include earth houses, fogous and Pictish houses and they appear to have been brought northwards from Gaul during the late Iron age. **(No the earliest souterrains are dated to the later Bronze Age are in the Northern Isles of Scotland)**

The name comes from the French language, where it means "underground passageway". **(No it literally simply means "underground")**

Souterrains are underground galleries and in their early stages were always associated with a settlement **(No- not proven for every example).** The galleries were dug out and then lined with stone slabs before being reburied. They do not appear to have been used for burial or ritual purposes **(Wrong again - several of the excavated Orcadian examples contained human remains in a variety of arrangements)** and it has been suggested that they were food stores or hiding places during times of strife, although some of them would have had very obvious entrances. They may be connected with the same people who built brochs **(No not always- as mentioned above- the Northern Isles examples predate the Middle Iron Age Broch period).**

[edit] Observations

Extracting the anonymous insertions for a closer look:
  • (No the earliest souterrains are dated to the later Bronze Age are [sic] in the Northern Isles of Scotland)
→No citation. However, this may be one item worth looking into further.
  • (No it literally simply means "underground")
→Casell's French Dictionary: Souterrain, masculine noun, underground vault or cavern.
  • (No- not proven for every example)
→No citation, no dates.
  • (Wrong again - several of the excavated Orcadian examples contained human remains ... )
→No citation, no dates.
  • (No not always- as mentioned above- the Northern Isles examples predate the Middle Iron Age Broch period)
→Idle carping, "may be" did not mean "always" in any case.
All in all, not very helpful. (A comparison of contribs suggests that 194.35.219.100, who added the parenthetical criticisms to the article 10:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC), may be the same as Freescotlandparty.) Athænara ✉ 05:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other languages

I added that in other languages the word is sometimes used for 'basement'. This is the case in Dutch, but I believe also in other languages. Also, in French it may mean 'underground passageway', but that is not the literal translation. It stems from 'sous terrain', which means 'under ground'. DirkvdM 14:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merger proposal

I think it is logical and useful to readers to merge Fogou into this page, and would like any help/suggestions other editors may ahve as to the best way to go about it. Thanks.--Doug Weller (talk) 12:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Oppose merge. There is certainly some overlap on these articles, but the literature is rather specific as to the names associated with specific sites and correspondingly the generally accepted geographic range of each. The literature is also somewhat specific on design characteristics of each. Why not let the pages evolve on their own? Each page could potentially become very large, given the amount of content available. There is no reason why the alternative terms can't be discussed in each article. It is not up to Wikipedia to make such subtle and historic word uses into a "vanilla" solution, where we kill off one name for posterity. Cheers. Hadrianheugh (talk) 21:21, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
CommentPaul Bahn's Penguin Dictionary of Archaeology defines Fogou as a souterrain. The article on Fogou gives them a range of northern Europe. You talk about 'the literature', yet it isn't in the article. Could you please let me know what it is? I'd be interested because I haven't seen anything that distinguished between the two terms by design characteristics. Not that that is a reason to have separate articles.--Doug Weller (talk) 21:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)