Talk:Sourdough

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I lived in the S.F. Bay Area all my life, but I just moved to Illinois, and no one sells sourdough bread. This is killing me. Why is this? I once heard that it's impossible to make sourdough bread in the Midwest. Is that true? --JM

The problem is that the distinctive flavor of a sourdough bread depends greatly on the particular breed of natural bacteria and yeasts growing in the starter. Different areas have different breeds, and therefore different tastes. Sourdough works anywhere, but the flavor can change from location to location, starter to starter, and day to day. --Mdwyer 05:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Is this original work? -- Zoe

It passes the Google test - it also looks like the legit recipe. --mav


Cite for ancient sourdough from http://www.sourdo.com/book.htm

"the organisms of sourdough that produced man's bread for 5,000 years."

--Dr.Ed Wood

Cite for wheat in ancient egypt from http://teaching.ucdavis.edu/nut120a/0032.htm

"G. Regarding cereals-grains

1. Wheat and barley were the cereals used most commonly. Indeed, during the Greek and Roman period of Egyptian history, Egypt was the grain producing breadbasket of the ancient Mediterranean. Even today, one may travel westward from Alexandria along the coast towards Libya, and in springtime, see the hundreds of ancient mounds that represent ruined villages where cultivators were housed; the irrigation system, cisterns are still in place and today, some of these are used by settled Bedouins. '

--Darrell



Contents

[edit] Congratulations on wonderful work

I had a terrible time finding a definition for sourdough – the stuff that is used as an alternative to yeast – in my big dictionary at home, and had little luck with several online dictionaries. All gave a definition so superficial " sour dough used as a leavening agent" that it told me nothing useful. Your definiton was wonderfully complete and so interesting to read that I learned a good deal more than the basics of sourdough biology, which was my original query. Many thanks to all who contribute to Wikipedia. Jay Bryan Montreal


[edit] Spoilage?

Does this statement As a result, many sourdough bread varieties tend to be relatively resistant to spoilage and mold. refer to the culture or the finished bread? pstudier 02:37, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

I remember reading, and it conforms to my exerience, that the longer it takes to make the bread (in development of the dough and in baking) the longer the bread will retain it's freshness.

A stable starter is somewhat resistant to other organisms taking over. Also the bread tends to have a longer shelf life.

Some breads will go stale and hard (even if kept properly) long before they spoil or become moldy. That has more to do with the fat content - the higher the fat, the longer the bread will remain soft and fresh. I suspect this is why commercial breads stay soft for so long. --Charlene.fic 04:16, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

The preservation comment should apply to both the starter and the bread. According to Dr. Ed Wood sourdough's first line of defense is the acidity of the starter and the dough. Most micro-organisms have trouble tolerating the acidity produced by the bacteria. Also, as of the time Dr. Wood's book "World Sourdoughs From Antiquity" was published 50 different agents with anti-bacterial properties created by the bacteria had been discovered in sourdough starter. Much of the protection carries over to the bread. In our small bakery we did some informal aging tests. We put wrapped and dated bread on the shelf. Typically it was at least 21 days before our sourdough breads developed any mold. 14 days for breads made with poolish or biga. And only 7 for straght process yeasted breads. Commercial breads tend to stay fresh because of the addition of stabilizers and preservatives. Adding oils will add a few days freshness, but a well made bread will be enjoyable for at least a week. Bread has two enemies, mold and staling. The conditions that favor one will protect against the other. When I baked on the Gulf Coast of Texas, where the humidity was in excess of 80%, bread molded very quickly. In the dry high mountains of Colorado, where 38% humidity is considered a wet day, bread takes a long time to mold, but will stale quickly. Mavery81230 14:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sour dough loaves02.jpg

There has been criticism that this picture is "bad" and "blurry": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sour_dough_loaves02.jpg

The loaves are in perfect focus and the zoom blur is only for artistic effect. Perhaps the original uploader could upload a non-blurred image? Dav2008 18:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't even notice the blur until I read this page. I think it's fine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.69.156.35 (talk • contribs)

It clearly shows Sourdough's amazing ability to arrive on shelves in 70 mph bursts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.215.128.199 (talk • contribs)

This article is being vandalized very frequently purely because of this image; frankly, I'm tired of both doing and seeing the reversions. As a result, I'm going to remove it for the time being, and rearrange the existing images. If the photographer would consider uploading a non-blurred image (I will request it on his talk page), I would certainly welcome it back to this article. Anon user: it was barely funny the first time you did it, and repetition has only decreased its humor value. — Wwagner 18:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

This photo looks like it is taken at a Bakers Delight franchise. Their sour dough doesn't really have the proper (or should I say as rich) taste that sour dough bread usually has. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.137.38.93 (talk • contribs)

I agree. Check out Baker's Delight nutritional information for rye and sourdough - all the sourdough loaves have yeast and food acids in their ingredients. Of the included foods acids, 270 is lactic acid. If the image is of a Baker's Delight shop, the bread isn't sourdough. Webaware 09:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Alrighty, I talked to the photographer (Fir0002) and he uploaded a non-zoomy version of the image, which I have added back into the article. As far as whether these loaves are or are not sourdough, I didn't see them being made, so I have no comment. The image looks very good, and hopefully this will reduce our vandalism problems. — Wwagner 14:31, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I checked with the photographer, and he confirms it is in fact a photograph of bread in a Baker's Delight shop. IOW, it isn't actually sourdough bread. Webaware 23:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
It looks like sour dough, and that's all that matters for an encylopedic entry, to be honest. Don't be pedantic! 86.54.130.68 11:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand why everyone is so angry about that caption. I got a good chuckle out of it. "But Sourdough cannot fly onto the shelves!! It is an inanimate object!!" Give me a break, lighten up guy.

[edit] Image placement

I recently rearranged the images for the following reasons:

  • More attractive picture was made larger and placed on top-right
  • Sourdough starter picture placed in the appropriate section so it aids the text
  • Sourdough loaves was added a |thumb| and placed on the left side for left-right alternation. It was also made smaller so the amount of text between images is limited

Does this image placement work or does anyone have any other ideas? Dav2008 14:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Person As "Sourdough"

A person can be called a "sourdough," meaning an early settler or prospector in Alaska or NW Canada, according to the American Heritage College Dictionary.

Perhaps the term used in this context deserves some discussion, or an entry of its own? --Skb8721 22:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biga is not sourdough

This is the first time I've posted to talk pages. I hope I am not doing something wrong in the manner of my posting.

Biga, like poolish, is a technique that was developed after the advent of bakers yeast in the mid to late 1800's.

Bakers left sourdough in droves because yeast was easier to use. However, two problems arose. They had to pay the yeast company every time they made bread (bakers are among the most frugal people around) and the customers were upset about the reduced flavor in the yeasted breads compared to the straight dough process yeasted breads.

The answer to both problems lay in non-sourdough preferments.

There are five major non-sourdough preferments. Autolyse, sponge, old dough, poolish and biga. Right now, I'm interested in biga.

Biga is a mix of flour, water and yeast. It is about 57% hydration and uses about .35% fresh yeast. It is allowed to rise or ferment for 12 to 16 hours before use. The dense preferment builds lots of flavors, and has a characteristic light nutty taste. The long fermentation also allows the yeast to multiply. In the final dough another .17% or so of fresh yeast is added. This compares to about 2% fresh yeast in a straight dough process. There is no deliberate cultivation of lactobacillus bacteria and there is no hold over from day to day which together are hallmarks of the sourdough process.

In short, biga is NOT a sourdough process, and should not be linked to from the sourdough page, at least not with any indication that biga is a sourdough process.

Mavery81230 (talk) 03:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC) I am a baker with over 30 years of hobbyist experience, lots of reading and 5 years of professional experience. Sadly, I am in the middle of a move so I do not have access to books to act as references for the above. They are all in boxes. If someone has a copy of, "The Taste of Bread" by Professor Raymond Calvel that isn't in a shipping box, I believe most of the content above can be substantiated there.

Mike

I think they are similar enough to be maintained as a link, though. Indeed, the Biga (bread baking) article uses the term sourdough a number of times. You might want to drop by there, as well. In the meantime, I'll make an edit to the link to make the distinction more clear. --Mdwyer (talk) 06:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Mdwyer

Good edit. There is a difference between referring to biga as sourdough (which the original text did) and comparing it to sourdough (which the new text does). One is reasonable, one is not. Thanks. Mavery81230 14:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move to Natural leaven?

I'm not too sure about the current title -- sourdough and natural leaven aren't divergent enough subjects to really be separate articles, but sourdough is only a subset of the whole subject of natural leaven. The article needs a lot of work anyway -- organizational, etc -- any ideas? Haikupoet (talk) 02:08, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, it looks like that's a redlink, now. In any case, do the mentions on Leavening agent suffice? --Mdwyer (talk) 21:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Barm displaced sourdough?

In the sourdough article there is a passing mention that barm (variously defined as actively fermenting beer, the foam off of actively fermenting beer, or the lees under beer) displaced sourdough. Given that sourdough and beer have about the same length of history, the conclusion that barm displaced sourdough in bread making isn't clear to me. My impression is that barm was most common in England and rare elsewhere.


As a professional baker and a hobbyist brewer, I would not want to depend on a brewer to produce barm for me when I needed it. Most commercial bakers bake daily, most small scale brewers do not which could cause problems for the baker.

Anyway, is there a reference on this? Mavery81230 (talk) 15:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

It's been over two months, and there is still no reference to support the contention that barm displaced sourdough. It is clear that cultured yeast products did largely displace sourdough in the mid to late 1800's, but it is far from clear that barm was widely enough used to claim that it had displaced sourdough st any time. If there is no documentation on this, I suggest that the reference to barm be removed, as well as the link to the middle ages. Barm was not, from my reading, in common use in France, Germany or any country that used lots of rye flour. Sourdough acidifies rye flour making it more workable. Barm does not. Sourdough was common in France until well into the 1900's, and remains in common use today in Germany and other countries where rye is a major grain in breadmaking.

Mavery81230 (talk) 17:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Criteria for selection/inclusion of external links?

It isn't clear to me what the criteria for the selection of external links is. I added links to my own web page, sourdoughhome.com, and they were deleted as "possible linkspam." They were not. I see other hobbyist web sites have been added, notably the rec.food.sourdough FAQ (which is very good), and "Recipe, discussion and pictures of making sourdough bread." So, could someone clarify the criteria used (or point me to an appropriate line), and do either of these links meet those criteria? Mavery81230 (talk) 17:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The general criteria are at Wikipedia:External links, but it basically comes down to what people working on the article decide to include. Sourdoughhome.com seems like a reasonable site to link to me, it's got information that's too in-depth to be in competition with our article and it isn't just a commercial front. The only potential counter-argument is that we don't want to list too many sites with similar content because it gets too cluttered (I don't think sourdough preparation is so popular a website topic that that would be a problem though). DopefishJustin (talk) 05:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)