Talk:Soul sleep

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I noticed the additions made by 211.29.236.172. I don't know who you are or what your name is, 211.29.236.172. But seems that your latest additions show great bias. When I began this entry, I was attempting to remain most objective, simply stating the bare facts about the doctrine of soul sleep, and steering clear of any bias, or leaving the observer to decide for himself or herself. Can I ask why you have imposed your own personal convictions upon this entry, as you have with other entries? Parousia1 01:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Article title

I propose that the article be moved (renamed) to "Soul sleep", as this term is more common and more likely to be understood. Arguments, theologians, and denominations could then be clearly labelled as either for or against soul sleep, whereas the term psychopannychism is ambiguous in popular usage, according to the article. --Colin MacLaurin 19:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Church of God - Abrahamic Faith

There is a red wikilink on the page to The Church of God Abrahamic Faith. I believe that this refers to one of two existing articles (or possibly both): Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith) and Church of the Blessed Hope, who say they are different but both can be known as "Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith". Which one of these should the link point to, in other words, which one believes in soul sleep? --Colin MacLaurin 19:48, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


I can confirm that the "Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith)" does believe in 'soul sleep' or "that the soul is not separate from the body and so there is no "spiritual" self to survive bodily death." I'll see what I can do to give them some representation on this and other related articles if time permits. I'd be interested in dealing with the "largely discredited" portion of the first sentence. Could be my bias talking, but perhaps no less so than the article itself. Avecrien 21:44, 27 December 2006 (UTC)



[edit] Verse references

Would it be possible to use a modern translation for the verses? For instance, the following excerpt uses numerous ancient/extinct words and grammar structures. "yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two" Ansell 09:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Haha, classic. If I don't hear any objections in the next few hours I will change the version used. I presume that these verses are from the KJV. I will try and use the NIV or if anyone doesn't want that version then the NKJV. Cls14 12:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First reference anti-soul sleep

Just out of interest I have read through all the pros and cons of the argument. Not wishing to put any bias on the item or sit on either side of the fence here I was just wondering how the first con is supposed to disprove soul sleeping? Just purely out of interest! Cls14 11:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't. None of the Cons do! As soon as a translation uses the word spirit, the intent is that this spirit is supposed to be the "immortal soul". The word spiritus is Latin means the same thing as the Hebrew ruach and Greek pneuma. They all mean "breath", or "air" or "wind". The people of the Biblical times knew nothing of an immortal soul. What they did know is that death was accompanied by the cessation of breathing. Thus when the ancient texts say the body gives up its spirit, the people of the times it was written knew it just meant that the "nephesh" or "air breather" had stopped breathing. when you stop breathing, the body dies as the cells are starved of oxygen. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

[edit] Name change / new article proposal

A Seventh-day Adventist theology lecturer told me that "soul sleep" or at least a holistic anthropology is actually the consensus scholarly view, although it is a minority amongst Christians in general. Liberal scholar Rudolf Bultmann was mentioned as the leading example. I hope that these comments can be cited and integrated into the article. Colin MacLaurin 06:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

--

I have been talking to two theology lecturers/experts. If I understand them correctly, they said that the terms "soul sleep", "thetnopsychism" and so on are not used by scholars. They said that "something similar to" soul sleep is actually the majority scholarly view (of Protestants?); specifically a holistic anthropology or holistic view of the innate nature of mankind (i.e. that body, soul and spirit are inseparable). Rudolf Bultmann is the foremost scholar supporting this. He believes that Paul uses Greek terms, but that his worldview is shaped by his Hebrew background. So terms such as soma (body), pneuma (spirit), psuche (soul) and sometimes even sarx (flesh) each refer to the whole person, albeit a particular aspect thereof. Apparently most seminaries around the world would teach this, with some exceptions particularly in the United States. Other leading scholars supporting this view are Jewitt, Kümmel and Ladd. Cullmann is more readable (I will add these to the references on the page).

One must also remember there may be a difference between what the scholars believe the Bible teaches, and between what they actually believe! A liberal scholar may believe that the Bible teaches a particular concept, without believing it themselves. It is logically possible that a Catholic scholar could agree that the Bible teaches the view above, without believing it is true because of tradition etc. (Would a Catholic theology expert please comment if any such Catholic theologians exist). For a conservative Christian (Protestant?) who regards the Bible as the foremost authority, the two will be linked. Hence the article may need to reflect this point, by distinguishing views on what the Bible teaches from views that are ultimately held.

I propose the creation of a new, "parent" page called Christian anthropology, or perhaps Judeo-Christian anthropology would be better, so as not to exclude the Jewish view(s), which is/are a precursor to the Christian views anyway. It would serve as an overview, with links to main articles covering various details. It would cover bipartite (theology) and tripartite views (those articles are currently stubs and could be merged into the new page). Soul and spirit would be key parts of the article (new articles specific to the Judeo-Christian tradition on these topics would be in order, I believe. I looked in some theological dictionaries and found pages of detailed information on the Hebrew and Greek background of the terms, so there is certainly lots of potential content). It would also cover hell in Christian beliefs and related topics. Conditional immortality and annihilation are closely related and would also be covered.

Some expert attention would help to improve these articles (Catholic, Orthodox, liberal Protestant, conservative Protestant etc.) Colin MacLaurin 08:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Page Judeo-Christian anthropology created. If you have comments relevant to the new page, please reply there and reserve this page for discussions about soul sleep. Colin MacLaurin 12:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
A Christian anthropology page is a great idea. "According to Christians, what is a human being?" Good question with lots of different answers. For this page, Bultmann's view that Paul regarded the person as unified (not dualistic, as in Greeklphilosophy) is worth briefly including as part of a more general discussion about how an image of a unified person coheres with the doctrine of soul sleep. Coincidentally, I have recently been wondering whether Paul advocated soul sleep. Didn't he say that to die in the world is to awake in the Lord (that is, you are not conscious of the intervening period before the resurrection)? Jonathan Tweet 13:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Any references? Any scholarly view?

I think that this article lacks of the views that scholars have on this subject with references and comments that would shed light on the linguistic and cultural background of the Biblical psychology. I hope that in the near future I would have the time to add some interesting points. One major topic is the nature of the Biblical soul. Another interesting aspect is the history of psychology in Jewish and Patristic thought as regards the immortality of the soul. As regards, now, the English article soul, the diversity of opinions, strongly influenced by dogmatic views, has caused the article to become chaotic.--Vassilis78 13:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

There's a little section about the historical-critical view. Jonathan Tweet 13:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Related to conditional immortality

Is soul sleep related to conditional immortality? I suspect that it may be roughly equivalent in modern theology. I have heard that conditionalists such as Edward Fudge, Clark Pinnock etc. also believe in the unconscious state of the dead. It wouldn't surprise me if historically the two notions have been distinct. Please answer. Colin MacLaurin 16:29, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blatant OR

The section on Contradicting Bible verses contains a line of unsourced and opinionated commentary after each verse. This violates both WP:OR and WP:NPOV. Whoever added those unsolicited expressions of his personal opinion is clearly pushing a personal view that soul sleep is the "right" doctrine. I'll wait a short time then remove the POV commentaries. Freederick (talk) 18:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Supporting Verses

I have reworked the list of verses added, removed, reverted a few days ago, in order to try and bring them in line. Several changes were made, from the version used (almost all of the others were KJV, so i changed the additions) as it surely makes sense not to cherry-pick translations to make a point, to corrections of the references (several referenced verses not actually quoted), to the formating of the verses and the references. There is still a bit of work to do, and try and integrate all the Bible passages better ~ including removing some which are, IMHO, irrelevant. At this moment, however, i haven't time, so i'll try a bit later. Cheers, Lindsay 16:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This is regarding the verses that support soul sleep inadequately

Some of these verses do not appear to do a good job supporting soul sleep since they can be interpreted differently

2 Corinthians 4:7-5:4: This does not discuss the soul being sleep and discusses the unseen eternal things such as a implied house for us in heaven

Acts 2:34: This just implies David did not ascend into heaven but does not clarify on the alternative

John 20:17: Lack of ascension does not imply soul sleep, there is a verse relating to this where Jesus descends into a prison where other spirits are (I Peter 3:18-20)

There are a lot of verses used to support soul sleep when they do not even discuss an unconscious death. I think this should be reviewed so that only verses support soul sleep in detail are present. Some of the defense for soul sleep that is currently listed are ambiguous and can be interpreted differently (Nautica80 Emerus00@aol.com) Brandon.

This link provides verses that refute soul sleep and may want to be considered in terms of controversial verses.

http://www.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/soulslep.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.229.194.147 (talk) 04:59, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Text above moved from halfway up page. Cheers, Lindsay 05:05, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I completely agree, which is why i indicated above there is still a bit of work to do. Many of the questionable verses were added in a mass, and i edited them but didn't delete any yet. I also notice (now!) that Ansell above mentioned the translation issue. And i muddied the waters by making them all KJV! In my defense, though, KJV was present, and is a ubiquitous version. Nevertheless, when i come back after the weekend, if no one else has by then, i shall change the translation and edit the selection. By the way, when you edit the talk page, could you sign your name with four tildes, please? Cheers, Lindsay 05:05, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm new to actually editing anything here, so please forgive me if I've erred in the way I'm posting here. However, as I was making a small addition of denominations (including my own, COG7) who are modern supporters of this view, I noticed in the edit history that at some point someone changed the Greek "psuche" to "psyche" - does anyone know why? My understanding is that the former is(was) correct, but I left it as is. Blessings. MusicalMan77 (talk) 04:12, 24 February 2008 (UTC)MusicalMan77

Hmm, it's gonna take a bit more work than i thought to make it as good as i can; let me outline what i propose doing:
1) I notice that the POV comments have been reinstated on the Controversial Verses; i believe they should come out;
2) We ought to have a slightly more modern version of scripture;
3) I see no reason to wikilink every mention of every book of the Bible, and will undo them;
4) The verse lists are rather, well, listy at the moment; i'd like to make them a bit more prosey (but not, i trust prosaic).
In order to accomplish the latter three goals, i propose rewriting the two sections (supporting & controversial verses), much in the manner of the Biblical section of the Perpetual virginity of Mary, with links to the outside Bible site, so that every verse will not be quoted in full. I expect to be a few days over this, so please be patient. Cheers, Lindsay 16:41, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


The verses I added do not support soul sleep but the resurrection of a dead soul in heaven. I want to add that Oscar Cullmann and Orthodox theology are very close to soul sleap. Florofsky has said, and his viewpoint is widely accepted by Greek Orthodox theologians, that a "soul without a body is ghost". For Orthodox theology, man is both soul and body, and the separation of soul from the body is an irregular condition, contrary to the platonists who considered the body as the grave of the soul, and the seperation of the soul from the body as a liberation.--Vassilis78 (talk) 08:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


The comments are not POV because they reflect the current scholarship. Many of the arguments used for the immaterial and immortal soul are now outdated. In the last century much have changed as regards the understanding of Biblical psychology. I believe that tt is POV and misleading to present arguments that do not exist among current theological dictionaries but just reflect the thoughts of the Sunday School of the 19th century.--Vassilis78 (talk) 17:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

No worries. I'll finish rewriting, as i indicated above, and then we'll see if i've done a good job. Cheers, Lindsay 18:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


Actually I disagree, the arguments for an immaterial soul are not outdated. Even the Chabad.org which is a Jewish site, using the Torah (which is where most of the soul sleep verses come from, the OT), defends the concept of an immediate afterlife. The reason why there is very little talk about an afterlife in the OT is because (according to that site) the focus was the present, and the life currently lived. There are ton of mainstream theologians that support an immediate afterlife. However besides that, I do think this article is put together well, it is just that some verses that support and refute soul sleep can be interpreted differently which gives the illusion that there is no support for an immediate afterlife at all within any realms of scripture. Nautica80 (talk) 02:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)Nautica80Nautica80 (talk) 02:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I am wandering if Chabah is in cooperation with the Jewish universities or the official Rabbinic organizations. I don't know; if you know, please provide info. What I know are the two official publications, the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Judaica. Both say that immortality of the soul was introduced into Judaism by the influence of Platonism. This is the passage of the Jewish Encyclopedia, which was written a century ago:


The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture. As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it. As soon as the spirit or breath of God ("nishmat" or "ruaḥ ḥayyim"), which was believed to keep body and soul together, both in man and in beast (Gen. ii. 7, vi. 17, vii. 22; Job xxvii. 3), is taken away (Ps. cxlvi. 4) or returns to God (Eccl. xii. 7; Job xxxiv. 14), the soul goes down to Sheol or Hades, there to lead a shadowy existence without life and consciousness (Job xiv. 21; Ps. vi. 6 [A. V. 5], cxv. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 18; Eccl. ix. 5, 10). The belief in a continuous life of the soul, which underlies primitive Ancestor Worship and the rites of necromancy, practised also in ancient Israel (I Sam. xxviii. 13 et seq.; Isa. viii. 19; see Necromancy), was discouraged and suppressed by prophet and lawgiver as antagonistic to the belief in Yhwh, the God of life, the Ruler of heaven and earth, whose reign was not extended over Sheol until post-exilic times (Ps. xvi. 10, xlix. 16, cxxxix. 8). As a matter of fact, eternal life was ascribed exclusively to God and to celestial beings who "eat of the tree of life and live forever" (Gen. iii. 22, Hebr.), whereas man by being driven out of the Garden of Eden was deprived of the opportunity of eating the food of immortality (see Roscher, "Lexikon der Griechischen und Römischen Mythologie," s.v. "Ambrosia"). It is the Psalmist's implicit faith in God's omnipotence and omnipresence that leads him to the hope of immortality (Ps. xvi. 11, xvii. 15, xlix. 16, lxxiii. 24 et seq., cxvi. 6-9); whereas Job (xiv. 13 et seq., xix. 26) betrays only a desire for, not a real faith in, a life after death. Ben Sira (xiv. 12, xvii. 27 et seq., xxi. 10, xxviii. 21) still clings to the belief in Sheol as the destination of man. It was only in connection with the Messianic hope that, under the influence of Persian ideas, the belief in resurrection lent to the disembodied soul a continuous existence (Isa. xxv. 6-8; Dan. xii. 2; see Eschatology; Resurrection).
Hellenistic View. The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended, as the Semitic name "Minos" (comp. "Minotaurus"), and the Egyptian "Rhadamanthys" ("Ra of Ament," "Ruler of Hades"; Naville, "La Litanie du Soleil," 1875, p. 13) with others, sufficiently prove. Consult especially E. Rhode, "Psyche: Seelencult und Unsterblichkeitsglaube der Griechen," 1894, pp. 555 et seq.—Immortality of the Soul.


Regarding the biblical verses at stake, the modern Tanakh (The Jewish Publication Society, 1985) translation says:


Genesis 35:18 But as she breathed her last -- for she was dying -- she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin. Thus Rachel died. She was buried on the road to Ephrath -- now Bethlehem.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 And the dust returns to the ground As it was, And the lifebreath returns to God Who bestowed it.


So, it is true that many Biblical arguements in favour of the immortality of the soul are outdated.


--Vassilis78 (talk) 11:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


Nautica: Allow me to say a second word. You said: Actually I disagree, the arguments for an immaterial soul are not outdated. As regards the OT, the so-called "Biblical" support to an immaterial soul is COMPLETELY outdated, because in the world history of religion and philosophy Socrates and Plato were probably the first who introduced the idea of the immaterial soul. Before Socrates and Plato, many believed in the immortality of the soul, as Greeks, Babylonians and Egyptians, but no one had conceived the idea of an immaterial soul. I doubt if you have ever read a single academic book that says that, before Socrates and Plato, there were others who believed in an immaterial soul. Personally, I have never found any such statement in books of the last 50 years. As far as I have seen, anti-sectarian or non-academic books are the only exception, books which, of course, are of no scientific value at all.

--Vassilis78 (talk) 11:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Regarding your second word: An immaterial Soul is the same as a Spirit body, some cultures call it the "soul" and still see it separate from the body(since apparently you want to argue semantics on the idea of immaterial). There is ton of evidence that early religions before platonic influences thought of an immediate afterlife upon death separate from the body, which of course is not a physical body but an immaterial soul. They may not have coined the term "immaterial soul" but I do not see the difference in the two beliefs and how they define it. You also want to argue about how Jews were influenced by the Hellenistic view and it not being a truth belief within their Torah, which you are basically telling me that before that they thought of death as the end until the resurrection, the irony in that is the concept of the resurrection (World to Come) was influenced as well by Zoroastrianism, which existed before Judaism, which I may add also supports the idea of an immaterial soul, however they do not call it that, they just call it the soul.

If the arguments were as outdated as you claim then I can not imagine why Soul Sleep is such a minority view even if tradition persists. I have no problems with the scripture used to support Soul Sleep, but I can not imagine anyone stating that this is the fact itself. We have to remember words are used to describe what things appear to look like, We all know sleep is not death yet it is constantly equated to death, sometimes through comparisons or using statements such as "they have fallen asleep" but when we sleep every night, we are not dead so we have to understand when words are not truly literal. I can't imagine Jesus using a false idea of an afterlife to make a point as seen in the parable of the rich man/Lazarus Luke 16:19-31. The word nephesh is used to describe many things even attributes of the mind such as desire, lust, greed, so it does not only mean the breath of life. So does that mean the breath of life has attributes or does that just mean one word can mean many different things? Could we say the same for the word soul/spirit? Matthew 10:28 implies that the body and soul can only be killed by one, which is God but it does distinguish the two even if it is vague. It all depends how the context of the word, because one word has multiple means, the word she'ol for example is debated to have roots in the word sha'al which means "to ask, to interrogate, to question.", so then what of all the scripture that is not too detailed on what truly takes place in she'ol? How should we interpret that? Why did Paul want to depart from the body to be with Christ? What is truly the original translation of what Jesus says to the their on the cross about paradise? Why did Stephen ask the lord to receive HIS spirit when he died? Why would there be souls under the altar crying out for vengeance if they were not yet resurrected? Why did Moses appear to Jesus as an Apparition isn't he is suppose to be sleeping? I would hardly call any argument outdated if they can still be interpreted in so many different contexts. It is safe to say religious concepts were influenced in so many ways and it is clear through the bible how concepts evolved as they were engaged in the world around them, but I doubt we can say with 100% certainty that we truly know the context of what it all meant, especially when we ourselves can often speak words with different implied meanings.

Here are some highly debated verses that can go either way:

 1 Sam. 28:8-15 - Communication with the dead?
 1 Kings 17:21 - "let THIS child's SOUL return to him" It implies ownership of the soul which only belongs to the child
 Matthew 10:28 - Implies body and soul
 Luke 16:19-31 - Rich man parable
 Acts 7:59 - Stephen asking the Lord to receive his spirit (I can't imagine this meaning "breath")
 1 Thess. 5:23 - Identifies 3 parts: Spirit/Soul/Body
 Hebrews 12:23 - "Spirits of just men made perfect" The context seems to be talking about the past dead but I am unsure
 Revelation 6:9 - Conscious souls under the altar who have yet to be resurrected
 Heb. 4:12;  - It scripture makes it a point to acknowledge the soul and spirit instead of singling out a unified "one"
 1 Cor. 14:14 - "my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." Hints are some sort of dualism
 2 Cor 5:8 - Paul prefers to be away from the body but with the Lord
 2 Cor 12:2-4 - Talks about Paradise/Third Heaven unsure if "apart from body" which would imply some sort of separation logic
 Luke 23:42-43 - The comma location determines the meaning of this but it also mentions Paradise


I have no problems with your logic, because soul sleep seems very reasonable, I just can not agree that those concepts are outdated within the text of the Bible/Torah/Qu'ran since they are still highly supported today.

Here are some other links besides the Chabad site:

http://www.probe.org/faith-and-science/general-science/mind-soul-and-neuroethics.html#text1 http://www.equip.org/site/c.muI1LaMNJrE/b.2859123/k.BDB8/CP0711.htm http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_afterlife.htm


http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm "The Torah speaks of several noteworthy people being "gathered to their people." See, for example, Gen. 25:8 (Abraham), 25:17 (Ishmael), 35:29 (Isaac), 49:33 (Jacob), Deut. 32:50 (Moses and Aaron) II Kings 22:20 (King Josiah). This gathering is described as a separate event from the physical death of the body or the burial."


66.229.194.147 (talk) 01:56, 9 March 2008 (UTC)Nautica8066.229.194.147 (talk) 01:56, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


Nautica or 66.229.194.147: This is not a discussion forum. The only thing we can and must do is to put sources. Can you find a source saying that before Plato and Socrates there were people who believed that soul is immaterial? I will provide a source that says the opposite:

Like many (or indeed all) sixth and fifth century thinkers who expressed views on the nature or constitution of the soul, Heraclitus thought that the soul was bodily, but composed of an unusually fine or rare kind of matter, e.g. air or fire. (A possible exception is the Pythagorean Philolaus, who may have held that the soul is an ‘attunement’ of the body; cf. Barnes 1982, 488-95, and Huffman.) The prevalence of the idea that the soul is bodily explains the absence of problems about the relation between soul and body. Soul and body were not thought to be radically different in kind; their difference seemed just to consist in a difference in degree of properties such as fineness and mobility.—Ancient Theories of Soul, The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

--Vassilis78 (talk) 18:03, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

You really think that that Socrates/Plato were the first to think up a immaterial spirit body? I can provide outside sources but I might as well use wiki to show you it is available right here!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism (Maybe the Persians influenced Plato?) They believed after 4 days the soul left the body

Should I even bring up Hinduism or Buddhism or Jainism? I know for sure they existed before Plato and Socrates and believed in reincarnation and an immaterial aspect of the body, maybe they influenced Plato? Which was not one body going into an other, but a continuation consciousness, which is definitely immaterial. Or as the Hindu's call it, the Atma which never dies and is immortal. This definitely existed before Plato and Socrates. Now if you want to say Christianity was influenced by Plato or that his views perhaps influenced Judaism then you have a valid point, but to say that concept did not exist before Plato is inaccurate. There is a difference in who came up with a theory for it and when it was actually believed.


http://books.google.com/books?id=WEs8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=origination+of+the+soul&source=web&ots=6OhGWMoRV1&sig=sDfRx8PYt1dv9qy6Xl1RqM3LVb8&hl=en#PPA18,M1

66.229.194.147 (talk) 00:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)Nautica8066.229.194.147 (talk) 00:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

We can continue this conversation over email if you like. Emerus00@aol.com.

66.229.194.147 (talk) 19:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)Nautica8066.229.194.147 (talk) 19:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


I think this site should be looked at because quite a few verses have been presented that claim to oppose soul sleep, only a few on this site are not truly acceptable as a soul sleep rebuttal. http://www.letusreason.org/7thAd22.htm http://www.tektonics.org/qt/sleepy.html

I don't want to add any verses to the main page without permission. Please let me know if it is ok. Thanks.

66.229.194.147 (talk) 01:07, 10 March 2008 (UTC)Nautica8066.229.194.147 (talk) 01:07, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Dear Nautica, I think that the core of our disagreement is that you confuse immaterialism with immortality. It is not the same. Immortality of the soul is a very ancient doctrine, as old as religion itself. Ancient Babylonians, Egyptians and others believed in the immortality of the soul, but it was Socrates and Plato who tried to "explain" immortality (and more precisely reincarnation) with their theory about the eternal, without beginning and without end, World of the Ideas (idealism), a world immaterial, totally different in essence from the material world, which has beginning and end. Ideas, Nautica, do not have bodies, do not have height, width and length, immaterial things are incorporeal. On the contrary Babylonians and Egyptians made material offerings to the tombs of the dead ones for their satisfaction. That is why those people used to put money, weapons and other things in the tombs for the service of the dead. It is because they considered the hereafter very similar to this life.

All graves of every class testify to the faith in a life after death similar to life on earth.—George Andrew Reisner, The Egyptian Conception of Immortality.


This has nothing to do with the platonic idealism. However, Platonic idealism influenced the formation of the Jewish and the Christian doctrine on the soul, as it is evidenced by the Rabbinic and Patristic literature.


And, with all respect, allow me to give you a piece of advise: do not pay much attention to internet sites that are not published by academics who are specialized in the field of philosoply, ancient languages and history of religion. There are many amateurs and religious fanatics who write things according to their ignorance and day-dreams.


--Vassilis78 (talk) 08:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone have a source for these verses? Wikipedia does not permit original research in articles (i.e. it is not okay for one of us to compile a list of verses we think supports or opposes our points). Kristamaranatha (talk) 02:58, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course there are sources that use these texts.--Vassilis78 (talk) 08:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Isaac Newton reference

I noticed that Isaac Newton is cited as a supporter of this belief/doctrine, but there is no reference. Can one be added by the original drafter? Russell 79.74.244.200 (talk) 18:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)