Talk:Sotho-Tswana

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Alistair, (1) there are at least four "black Bantu" linguistic groups in South Africa - can you guess the other two? (2) all this talk of "tribes" has to go - use your imagination! (3) get rid of stuff about "animists" and "ancestor worship" - you know the truth (4) the use of the past tense is worisome (5) obviously "sangomas" is inappropriate - you should know by now what the Sesotho is, yes? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 19:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I didn't write this article! :) But yeah, there is a lot to be done. I'm guessing the other two are Venda and Tsonga? Obviously "tribes" is ridiculous. I didn't even see that. Actually I don't know why I'm writing a reply before getting to work.. I obviously agree with everything you've said. Isn't "black Bantu" tautology? Joziboy 18:22, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Better? I'll do some more work on it tomorrow. Also, I've left sangoma for the moment. I can't remember what the Sesotho word is? (and, at the risk of another debate a la the language names, sangoma is the SA English generic term for a southern African diviner/herbalist, don't you think? Although that is technically incorrect in this case. Since it's just the wrong word. I don't really know) Joziboy 18:47, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

No, just mention the fact that the Sesotho word is "ngaka", although obviously the difference is more than just linguistic (Mr. Bones was more based on a ngaka - more bone throwing, no drumming, no "agree!" "I agree"). "Black Bantu" - are the Khoisan "black"? Were Oprah's (real) ancestors "Bantu"? Why am I discussing "race" when I know it doesn't exist? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 20:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. Although I've made the traditional healer link to sangoma since there's no separate article on ngaka. Haha, I'd never watch Mr Bones - it looked horrendous in the trailer! Um, I don't know - I didn't think of Khoisan people as black. Sure races are completely contrived, but what terminology can be used to differentiate some cultures from others? "Bantu" has negative connotations in SA, "black" seems to annoy people, "African" doesn't clear anything up (I consider myself African), "Western" is incorrect (Australia's in the East), "developing" implies we're all aiming to be "developed" in a material sense... I see what you mean about labels on your homepage! Joziboy 21:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't differentiate them since all traits are continua - they only seem unique in isolation. What is "black"? Skin colour? Are Australians "black"? Why aren't the Khoisan? Aren't amaXhosa Khoisan? The "black experience"? That only happened after the fact (they are "black" therefore they were slaves - not the other way around). Are Mexicans "white"? "Jews"? "Arabs"? How many "races" are there, nowadays? Who decides? I don't know of any "black" 19th century anthropologists writing books placing the "5 races" on an evolutionary ladder. Why does dark skin make one closer to lower primates? What about having a hairy chest and needing to shave once a day? What about being (generally) taller and having a more muscular physique? What about having straight hair (how many apes do you know of with tightly curled hair)? IQ - what's an American test going to ask someone from the Transkei? English comprehension? European flags? Nursery rhymes? DUH!! Who decides this crap? Not me - and I won't accept that legacy. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 22:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you calling me an ape? :) Dude, no-one's said black people are lower down on evolutionary ladder since the 1800's! IQ tests don't even work for white Americans - they only test a very limited conception of intelligence. And you're right - even southern Europeans are darker than Scandinavians. But classification/history can't just be done on languages either - because "Zulu" people coming down from Central Africa wouldn't have spoken Zulu, it would've been some proto-Zulu language. I don't really know enough about anthropology to comment, but it seems to me that any system of generalisation is going to be inaccurate and/or offensive. There's artists and killers and geniuses and athletes and lesbians in any group of people. And mankind's been on the move forever, changing characteristics as we go (think of native malagasy people - they speak a language which is related to the Southeast Asian island languages (malay etc), which in turn came from migrations across Asia from the Middle East and Africa... black, to arabic, to central asian, to southeast asian and back to black!) Joziboy 10:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. I didn't invent that concept and I won't try to rationalise a flawed system - and you shouldn't either. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 10:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merger proposal

I propose that this Sotho-Tswana page be merged with the very brief but useful page Sotho languages on Sotho and Tswana dialects/languages, by fleshing out this Sotho-Tswana page which has considerable information on it, but is very lacking on language stuff. I think the merger is good for several reasons, including that fact that the "Sotho-Tswana" term is standard in referring to this subset of Zone S Bantu; and the principal fact that the two pages have an entirely overlapping domain (Sotho languages is a proper subset of Sotho-Tswana. — Sotho of the South 23:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you propose renaming Sotho languages to Sotho-Tswana languages, (if that's what you think the correct name for the article should be), but keep the pages for the language and the people separate, in line with what is done for other languages/ethnic groups. The Sotho-Tswana people page should have a short summary of the language-group page. —Batamtig 18:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC)