Talk:Sorginak

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Just made this page. I'm trying to find more information but all the sites are in Spanish. Can anybody else help me? Daimetreya

[edit] Logroño

AFAIK, the Spanish Inquisition very rarely attacked witches. It dealt with Conversos and Protestants. The Logroño process was the apex of it. (By the way, the Spanish film Aquelarre covers it. The article makes it appear as an everyday thing. --Error 01:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

I thought that the etymology of sorgin was that the sorgin would be the worker on water sources, a dowser, a detector of underground currents. Alternately I see that sorcery comes from Latin sors. --Error 03:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

LA RELIGIÓN DE LOS ANTIGUOS VASCOS:

sorguíña; sortu ::: nacer + gina ::: hacedora; hacedora de nacimientos, matrona)

parece estar basado en los trabajos de aita Barandiaran (incluido el error de equiparar "sorgina" a "matrona")

o la etimologia que da Vascon a esa palabra parece la correcta ya que comadrona tambien se dice "sortzain" (de sortu/nacer y zaindu/cuidar, vigilar) y es bastante seguro que antiguamente (al igual que hoy en dia) "sorgina" solo lo fueran las mujeres, ya que los hombres son "azti" o "belagile" (esto ultimo tambien pueden serlo muejres).

"Sorgina" está relacionado con "zorionak", vocablos ambos derivados del "sors" (suerte, augurio) latino. Como elemento que permitía la lecutra de "las suertes", la palabra txoriak (pájaros) deriva de este concepto. (Interesante: SHA, Alex.Sev. 27.6. Haruspicinae quoque peritissimus fuit, orneoscopos magnus, ut et Vascones Hispanorum et Pannoniorum augures vicerit.) O sea, que sorgina, de sortu + gina... nada de nada. De sors + egin, más bien. Sorgina sería entonces la "echadora de suertes", la adivina. Por antonomasia, la bruja.

No tengo nada claro el significado de sorgina como comadrona. En mi opinión ese elemento "sor" del nombre procede asimismo del "sors", augurio, antes citado, y no de sortu (por "nacer"). Por esa misma razón, R.M. Azkue prefería escribir con "z" esta palabra. Acabo de consultar el Orotariko Euskal Hiztegia de Mitxelena, que le dedica 5 páginas a esta entrada, y ni uno solo de los ejemplos recogidos la relaciona con "comadrona". Por otra parte existe el término "sorginazti", que se emplea tanto para hombres como para mujeres.

>Según Mitxelena, de sor ‘sordo, sonado’ + -gin, así que sería algo así como ‘que hace que la gente quede sonada, atontada, embrujada?’. Ni hechadora de suertes, ni matrona.

Sobre la etim. de sorgin, según Mitxelena en “Las etimologias vascas de Michelena”: SORGIN: “La etimología vasca de sorgin no deja de ofrecer graves dificultades. Partiendo de zori, se esperaría *zol- por lo menos *zor-; si se parte de que su primer elemento es lat. sortem, llegaríamos a *zortegin (cf. zort(h)e “suerte”) o por lo menos a *zorkin de *zort-gin” (BAP 11, 295). Posiblemente de sor “insensible, sordo” (la coincidencia de su sílaba inicial con fr. sorcier “me parece puramente casual”) (70-2, 72 n. 12). >Por lo tanto, nada de lat sortem, sino la palabra vasca sor, prácticamente deconocida en el eusk. actual, por lo menos el occidental.

>Por lo tanto, nada de lat sortem, sino la palabra vasca sor, prácticamente deconocida en el eusk. actual, por lo menos el occidental.--> Siento decirte que te equivocas, pues yo ya he oido mas de una vez esa palabra (aunque yo utilize 'gor') Mi novia la utiliza y ella habla un dialecto gipuzkoano aunque tal vez tenga alguna influencia del navarro.

--Error 03:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

• Sor(tu):create. To be born is jaio.
• Zorionak has nothing to do with sors (unless this one is one of those hidden Basque substrate influences), zorionak comes from zori (also txori): bird, and it's probably related to ancient traditions like the Roman-Etruscan one of considering birds of good or bad omen depending on the direction of their flight. Zori-onak: good birds (good fortune, congratulations). --Sugaar 20:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I have to correct you there, Sugaar. Jaio is the word for 'to be born' in western Basque, but in eastern Basque it is indeed sortu. --A R King 18:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

What "eastern dialects"? The Bi Mila dictionary, funily enough, gives only the sense of "adormecerse los sentidos" (not sure how to translate that to English) and gortu (to deafen). Yet to create is translated as kreatu, sortu, egin, while to be born is translated only as jaio. They may be missing something though.

I see sense to the equation create = be born = give birth = midwives = sorginak = akelarre = Mari and Sugaar creating the storms in their cave... but I have no evidence myself that sortu means to be born or to give birth. It's logical though. --Sugaar 03:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

 :Forgive my ignorance, but what is 'radical'? Singular Sorginak is Sorgina, and radical is Sogin. What is radical? -Daimetreya (1 April 2007)