Talk:Sonic & Knuckles Collection

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[edit] Michael Jackson's involvement

It has been confirmed that Michael Jackson worked on the music for the original Sonic 3, and that his involvement was downplayed due to the scandal surrounding him. Some people have said that traces of his music may remain in the Genesis version of Sonic 3. Thus, it's possible that the music in the S&K Collection was changed due to licensing issues. I don't want to put that in the article yet, because it's still pretty much speculative, but this is still an importiant issue. So, discuss. --Aurochs

He had no involvement. The composers of Sonic 3 were a bunch of unknowns like Bobby Brooks and Scirocco. The main reason is because the MIDI/FM synthesizer couldn't use those wav sounds unlike how a Genesis sound chip can, so they were replaced. Although people have been able to recreate the music without using the sounds in question. If this was the case, the music would've been changed in Sonic Jam and Sonic Mega Collection as well, but those were kept intact. TonicBH 12:52, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
"The main reason is because the MIDI/FM synthesizer couldn't use those wav sounds unlike how a Genesis sound chip can, so they were replaced." That's a piss-poor excuse. The DAC samples you're referring to are simple 8-bit PCM sounds. It would be trivial to make a player for them, and probably just as trivial to make it work with the MIDI player correctly.
"No involvement?" STI's project director during the development of both Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles says otherwise, and I don't know why he would lie about that... --Aurochs
He could merely be joking. As I said, 8-bit PCM sounds can not be easily recreated on a PC MIDI/FM. Sonic CD for the PC had this problem, and they resolved it by making the "Past" tunes (which were done on PCM, not Redbook) CD audio tracks like the rest. There were problems with the process, but what can you do?
Besides, it doesn't make sense. Why would we find this out NOW as opposed to, oh say, when Sonic 3 was being released? I do have a theory: Brad Buxer is one of the Sonic 3 composers, and he worked with Jackson for a period of time. Most likely his contributions had tunes that mimiced a style of a certain song Jackson performed. I've heard comparisons of Carnival Night Zone and Jackson's song "Jam", which contains a piece similar to one familiar part of CNZ. They're not exactly the same, but there's an influence. It just doesn't make sense, to me anyhow. TonicBH 04:22, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
It makes sense. Michael Jackson has been shown with Sonic merchandise before (there was a picture, I recall, of him playing Sonic 2), and he was popular at the time. So they brought him in to do some music (you can tell some of it is him - you can hear his scream in some parts), but when the original scandals rose up, Sega didn't want that kind of business surrounding him so they left his name out of the credits. If I recall correctly, Ice Cap did not contain PCM samples, or at least, any that could be left out without being detrimental to the main music. In any case, the tracks that got replaced (Carnival Night, Icecap, Launch Base, S3 Miniboss, S3 Credits, S3 Knuckles song) all sound like something Jackson might do (except Icecap) - ya know, the clap, the "go!", and all the cheesy screams. After leaving his name out of the credits, I wouldn't be surprised if Jacko wasn't happy about him getting no credit for his involvement. So he pulls the songs from them. Makes perfect sense. --Guess Who 09:47, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Ok, GW. Although, I think it would help you a lot if you signed up for an account. --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 09:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
As I've mentioned before, it's most likely an influence. Why would we find this out NOW instead of when it came out? I'm still going by the theory that they couldn't replicate the sounds on a PC MIDI, and that's why they were replaced in this game. This collection came out in '96, Jackson wasn't in any controversy at the time except the Lisa Marie Presley thing. And if this was the case, Sonic Jam and Sonic Mega Collection would also have the changed music, but they have the originals. Can we drop this, please? It just sounds ludicrous to me. -TonicBH 17:00, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
We find this out NOW because Sega wouldn't want something like having the scandalous Jacko do music for their mascot's latest game known, because there was a lot of contreversy around him. The reason the music might have not been changed in Sonic Jam is because Jacko hadn't pulled the songs from them. He probably pulled the songs from them for not crediting him. That's why Jam has them. Then, S&K Collection came out and he pulled the songs, so the songs had to be changed. Mega Collection wouldn't have them changed because the games weren't ported (they couldn't be, Sega said they lost the source code), they were emulated versions of the Genesis versions. They'd have to do hack the game. Sonic 3 ROM hacking isn't very advanced at the moment (not near to the level of Sonic 2). Thus, they probably had little choice but to keep the music. (gah, forgot to log in) --Guess Who 18:40, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
That has got to be downright one of the dumbest theories I have ever heard. I'm still gonna go by my theory, but if you still wish to think Michael Jackson did music for Sonic 3, then go right ahead. I'm not even gonna bother continuing this argument. -TonicBH 20:13, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Hasn't anybody found another source for this other than the first? I seem to lean toward TonicBH's theory. If Jackson really did the music for Sonic 3, and decided to have it scrapped before S&KC, then why would it be released for Mega Collection? Sega would land itself into legal trouble with Jackson. Would Sega purposely try to get into litigation? Also, the Mega Collection is the only release which has MIDI, which supports Tonic's theory more. --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 01:49, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Like I said, S&K Collection was ported. They could recode that to play MIDIs. Mega Collection is an emulated version of the Genesis game, which they lost the source code to (I'll dig my source for that up later). Music hacking in S3 is practically nonexistant (especially at the time of Mega Collection's release), so they couldn't change it. Also, why would you need another source when we have a confession from the DIRECTOR of Sega Technical Institute, who would've done this work? Also, photographical evidence that MJ and Sonic are in someway related can be found [here]. --Guess Who 22:55, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't know why they would have to hack the music, when the original music was fine. The picture is partially irrelevant, and Roger Hector isn't mentioned in the game's manual credits (and most likely not mentioned in the game's credits either), so I'm questioning the validity of his statement. As I said, I'd prefer to see more proof then from some former employee at Sega Technical Institute who probably is saying rumors or a joke. -TonicBH 13:12, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
Interesting. TonicBH makes a much better argument here, despite his unqualified skepticism. I highly doubt that Hector is lying, but the game was released over ten years ago. Perhaps Jackson was brought in to work on a different game that STI was working on at the same time, and Hector is misremembering? Perhaps we should ask MJ himself about it?
About his lack of credit, I don't think a general project director would be credited in the game. Is Hector credited in ANY of the games that were being developed at STI while he was there? I suppose I need to go back and play through S3&K so that I can read the credits. --Aurochs
"I've asked Hector again about this issue. He is 100% sure it was Sonic 3 Jackson worked on. He organised it." - HXC, guy who originally interviewed Roger Hector. We know for fact that MJ worked on it, the only forseeable question is whether or not those songs are his or not. It's possible, though. --Guess Who 20:17, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


Hey, you know, Sega might have lost the music for those songs, just like they lost the source code. --cinos_akan 05:04, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
The actual quote from Roger Hector is as follows:

"Michael Jackson was originally brought in to compose all the music for the game, but at the very end, his work was dropped after his scandals became public."

Meaning that all of Jackson's work was dropped anyway, none of it remaining in the final game. =P It amazes me how people can think there are tracks by him in the game when the quote is worded so clearly, and he doesn't appear in the game credits... --McAleeCh(Guest) 15:56, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
One supporting piece of evidence that Michael Jackson did some of the tracks that was left out is that Sonic & Knuckles had a few tracks that sounded like they were done by Jackson replaced with newer versions. The Knuckles theme, 1-Up clip, credits, and mid-boss. It could have happened that Sega had an agreement to release the Jackson tracks for Sonic 3, but after what happened didn't have the rights for Sonic and Knuckles. Also, the emulated versions in Sonic Jam and Mega Collection are copies and not ports, so there could be different legal issues in both cases. Another thing that would backup the Jackson claim is that the music for Sonic 1 and 2 were both done by Dreams Come True, which asked for too much money to do the third. It would not be surprising if Sega hired a music star, such as Jackson, to do the third instead. --207.216.41.128 02:30, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
And don't forget that the songs that were changed from S3 to S&KC sound incredibly similar to some MJ songs, specially the S3 Credits... --87.196.98.160 20:16, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes indeed. New evidence has come to light concerning S3's credit music. this is the credit music to Sonic 3. This is Michael Jackson's song "Stranger in Moscow" sped up. You'll notice a REMARKABLE similarity. --Guess Who 01:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


"He had no involvement. The composers of Sonic 3 were a bunch of unknowns like Bobby Brooks and Scirocco."
Let's go through the list, shall we?
  • Bobby Brooks - engineer for Michael Jackson. Sequenced synthesizers and drums on Blood on the Dance Floor and mixed HIStory.
  • Darryl Ross - vague, ill-defined resume credit: "Darryl Ross is an accomplished producer, musician, songwriter, arranger and vocalist. Artists he worked with are Michael Jackson...".
  • Geoff Grace - arranger for Michael Jackson. Credited for arranging the music for Jackson's Dangerous tour.
  • Brad Buxer - performed arranging, keyboards, sequencing and more for Blood on the Dance Floor and Invincible.
  • Doug Grigsby - unknown credit on HIStory.
This is what I was able to find with a cursory 10 minute Google search. More in depth digging will probably be more revealing. Now, here's the deal: check the songwriting credits on Michael Jackson's albums. Like most pop star singers, he either doesn't compose his own music or collaborates closely with a group of professional songwriters and producers. All of the names credited for composing the music to Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles are producers and musicians who have worked with Jackson (except "Scirocco", probably a Sega of Japan employee using a pseudonym), and were probably working with him during the same time period that these games were developed and released. It seems clear to me that his involvement was intended, although I think the person who thinks that the sampled screams in Sonic 3/S&K are in fact Jackson is mistaken. As for controversy, Jackson was alleged to have molested at least one young boy in 1993, when Sonic 3 was originally released. This doesn't explain the replaced music in the PC collection, but it would explain Sega's decision not to include Jackson in the game's soundtrack. --71.71.241.224 20:05, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
I did my research back in December, but I forgot to post my 2¢ here. Thanks for reminding me, guys!
  • There is a bio floating around on Google for an R&B producer named Cirocco, who supposedly worked with Michael Jackson and Brad Buxer on the Hydrocity and Marble Garden zones (more info as I get it).
  • "The composers of Sonic 3 were a bunch of unknowns..." No, the composers were a bunch of Jackson's people. The majority of the team were keyboard programmers for Michael Jackson from 1994-96, and Buxer (likely the lead) worked closely with Jackson in-studio and on-stage from 1990-2001. Michael Jackson brought the team to Sega, not vice-versa, which might've made it harder to completely eliminate his influence without removing the whole team (at least until S&K). That could explain the similarities between the Sonic 3 themes and some songs off of the Dangerous and HIStory albums.
  • As for the repeated claims of hearing Jackson's voice sampled in the missing songs: As a Michael Jackson fan, I initially found those claims ridiculous. However, that style of voice sampling is similar to some work he did around that time ("Mind is the Magic"), but that's not saying much, is it?
  • Why are the sample-heavy tracks missing from S&K Collection? C'mon, these are the same guys who licensed the KGen code[1] from Steve Snake (ex-Sega) because they couldn't get the Genesis emulation right for Sega Smash Pack! The same guys who put the Genesis version of Sonic 3D in the Mega Collection when they couldn't emulate the Saturn properly. Maybe they figured the gameplay was great enough without including 3 of the coolest songs on the soundtrack. ESPIOKaos has already proven that the "Ice Cap", "Launch Base", and "Knuckles/Angel Island mini-boss" themes could've been recreated decently in MIDI,[2] but there's no use crying about it now.
That was an awesome idea, going to Michael Jackson when they couldn't get Dreams Come True! It's too bad so many of Michael's collaborations (Pepsi, Spielberg, etc) were ruined by the scandals. I came in here to discuss the DAC/MIDI issue, and instead I find a connection between two of my favorite things!
-- Crnk Mnky 15:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Now that all these things have been shed into light, I believe you guys... Sort of. I still find it strange that we find this out now as opposed to when it came out. Now what I'd like to know is who composed what? How about you guys get crackin' on that? :P TonicBH 08:13, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

AM I CRAZY OR HAVE I FOUND A NEW PIECE OF THIS PUZZLE? listen to the song "Block Party" by Will Smith from the album Born To Reign....sound familiar? Like maybe Big Willie paid a visit to some Rusty Ruins? I could be trippin', but if anyone can explain why one of the song's publishers- as listed in the album's booklet- is MIJAC music....~SchadenfreudeNla@aol.com

My opinion is that all those guys where put in place to collaborate with MJ, they probably began working on material but only breifly before Sega booted MJ. That would explain why The songs appear to have alot of MJ's creative input but seeing as he never actually finished anything for them I'm guessing those guys may have used some of the ideas he left them with... baddlydrummedboy@gmail.com

We should write this theory on the page, it is interesting enough, and the theory exists.
How 'bout no. Unsubstantiated theories do not belong in the article. --Aurochs (Talk | Block)

I'm sorry but I find this whole Michael Jackson thing pretty obscure considering the fact that Jun Shenoe did the orignial Sonic 3 soundtrack if you require proof he did a rock remix of the angel Island theme on Smash Brothers Brawl. So Do not add anything about Jackson on this page unless you can prove it the least This page needs is speculation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Patmancav66 (talk • contribs) 19:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I guess all my "extensive research" was pointless, since the theory seems to have been inserted into this article as well as the Moonwalker game article without much validation or discussion on the talk pages. Qjimbo's video was quite interesting though, and makes the theory more believable. Qjimbo acknowledges that further evidence has developed since he made the video, and I think TonicBH integrated this into the Sonic 3 article quite well.

So are we sure that these replacement tracks were not from a Japanese version of Sonic 3? I know it's unlikely, since Sonic CD was probably the only game in which this happened (different music in U.S. version). -- Crnk Mnky 16:10, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I guess Qjimbo probably read about "my research" on Sonic Cult, not this lowly Wikipedia talk page. The next question is, did my documentation aid Sonic Cult research? Doesn't look like it. I just wanna feel useful... *boo hoo* -- Crnk Mnky 16:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additions

Are you guys happy for me to add a few cheats on this page? I'm having to work out some Genesis cheats and test them on the PC and see if they work, and this seemed the most appropriate place to locate them. -Wilfred

No. Only when the cheats are different from the Genesis version should they be on this page. --Aurochs

They LOVE MJ in Japan...and that's a FACT!

[edit] Anyone know where I can find the patch for the PC version?

I am a proud owner of the PC version of the game, and I have had some trouble with it ever since we got windows XP, such as the video moving too fast...