Talk:Somerled

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Contents 1 Somerled the Defender of Gaeldom 2 Translation question 3 Somerled and Rudder..? 4 Somerled's Title

[edit] Somerled the Defender of Gaeldom

Some of the stuff in the last section is highly questionable. Somerled's image as a defender of Gaeldom is spurious and based on later traditions, doubtless influenced by the propaganda of the numerous chieftains who claimed descent from him. It's one of those myths nurtured by early modern Scottish Gaeldom, like the nonsense about Queen Margaret. In actual fact, Scottish Gaelic scribes in the east of Scotland turned his name into a synonym for Norwegians. He bore a Norse name - subsequently Gaelicized (if he used the Gaelic form, it would have come into English as Sovarley, Sofarley or Sorley ) - unlike the King of Scotland at the time, Máel Coluim IV, whose name was Gaelic and was declared by Irish sources as "Mael Coluim Cennmor, mac Eanric, ardri Alban, in cristaidhe as ferr do bai do Gaidhelaibh re muir anair", i.e. "Máel Coluim the Great Lord, Henry's son, High King of Scotland, the best christian in Gaeldom in regard to charity, hospitality and piety, to the east of the sea." Some how, I just don't think the Gaelic-Foreign polarization is going to wash. Somerled was in fact like other lords of the time, a self-interested personal empire builder; there is a good deal of evidence that Somerled was conspiring with the MacHeths and MacWilliams, and perhaps even Fergus of Galloway, in order to put one of the MacWilliam claimants on the throne of Scotland, but Somerled was doubtlessly influenced by the establishment of Norman marcher lords in the Gaelic speaking areas west of Glasgow, from which he probably expected to receive tribute. On the other hand, he may have just been chancing his luck by trying to bring Inverclyde and lower Strathclyde into his personal empire, and that interpretation fits best from what we know of the rest of his career. - Calgacus 21:43, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

"(if he used the Gaelic form, it would have come into English as Sovarley, Sofarley or Sorley )" When I think of how Samhain is said to be pronounced as "Sovan", I'd think the Gaelic form Somhairle would be pronounced the most like Sovarley. 71.32.249.140 00:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Deleted the questionable section. An Siarach

[edit] Translation question

Rex Insularum does NOT really translate into King of the Herbides, but rather translated into "King of the Islands". Lord/Laird of the Isles would be "Dominus Insularum," and I'm unsure of the "King of the Herbides", which would be something along the lines of "Rex Herdiberum" or something like that. I'm not trying to be tricky, but let me know what you think on my talk page--V. Joe 07:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Please see my comment below. Rcpaterson 23:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Somerled and Rudder..?

There is much to be found on the net attributing the invention of the moveable (steer-able) rudder to Somerled... including a BBC History site. A quick search on "Somerled rudder" will yield more. If true, this is probably Somerled's greatest achievement... if not true it still warrants some research and mention. Doesn't it..?

I would think that the steerable rudder is one of the greatest naval inventions of all time... and if not Somerled, then it must be attributable to someone. In that case a line should be included that proves the legend false.

--Dogfish 18:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like an interesting angle to me. I say: Pursue! Isoxyl 18:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, they were known in east and south Asia long before they arrived in Europe. This might be helpful: it gives the earliest known illustration of a stern rudder as c. 1180. The illustration in question is here. The referenced Cog (ship) article says that the stern rudder was first used on cog (or perhaps hulk) type ships. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Somerled's Title

Somerled was never known as Rex Insularum (where on earth did that come from?), or Lord of the Isles, a title that does not appear until the fourteenth century, but as ri Innse Gall-King of the Hebrides.

Also I am completly baffled by the contention that Somerled's 'greatest legacy' was the expulsion of the Norse from their Scottish foothold. Politically the exact status of the Isles was uncertain for centuries, though they at least in a nominal sense remained under the authority of the Kingdom of Norway until the Treaty of Perth in 1266. When Hakon IV came to the Isles in 1263 he called many of the island chiefs to his standard, and some at least obeyed. Norse cultural penetration had never been as thorough in the Hebrides as it had been in Orkney and Shetland. While the Hebrides acquired the early name of Innse Gall-islands of the strangers-because of Viking settlement, Norse and Gaelic culture mixed and blended virtually from the beginning. Somerled may have been a Gaelic speaker, but his name means 'summer voyager'-Viking, in other words. He did not expel the Norse from the Isles, but took his own place-in succession to Godred Croven and the Kings of Man-in a uniquely Viking-Gaelic world. Rcpaterson 23:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)