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[edit] Comments

[edit] Merge

Is it not better to combine Isaac and Solomou into one article, especially since the events are so closely tied? Perhaps 1996 Greek Cypriot demonstrations or something? Cheers, --A.Garnet 17:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't really agree with that. They were two different persons, each one worth a separate reference. Do you suggest for example we should consolidate all Greek heroes of the 1821 Revolution (Theodoros Kolokotronis, Georgios Karaiskakis, Athanasios Diakos, Odysseas Androutsos etc) into one article? --   Avg    22:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

You comparison doesnt really make sense, because those people were all notable commanders and generals, each playing a different role in the revolution. Isaac and Solomou are notable because of their death in a demonstration. Were it not for the demonstration, they would not be notable. It is akin to creating an article on every person who died on bloody sunday, or any demonstration or disaster. I believe it makes more sense to create an article on the demonstration itself, and how their deaths came about from it. --A.Garnet 23:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe your objection is in terms of notability. Wikipedia:Notability guideline clearly says: "A topic is notable if it has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works, whose sources are independent of the subject itself." This is the case with these two persons. --   Avg    01:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with A. Garnet. We have to do with two different stories, two different notable persons, and two different events.--Yannismarou 11:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

This person was repeatedly warned not to attempt to climb the pole and tear down the Turkish Cypriot flag. That, as well the act of deliberately going into the buffer zone - a place known for being dangerous - meant that this person was definitely testing fate. If he ignored "Stop or we will shoot", then he really only has himself to blame for his death. True, the person who killed him needs to be called to account, but that person had better be joined by the demonstration organizers who co-opted him and the UN personnel who didn't do their part in keeping the peace. Stupid actions do not make martyrs, they only make persons die needlessly. Expatkiwi

Are you condoning murder, Expatkiwi? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 04:26, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Stupid question to stupid argument about "stupid actions": Ok, he broke in (alone and unarmed), ok he climbed the pole (bearhanded)... They shoot him? Is that what they do to people who protest in Turkey? Can't they just send over 3-4-11 others and pull him down of the pole and send him back with the others or arrest him or whatever? And ok, say they have to shoot him(!?) Does it have to be with real bullets; not plasticks? Does it have to be on the body; not on the foot? Does it have to be three times? (see the video linked in the article - shot in (a)the mouth (b)the neck (c)the gut - in that order) NikoSilver 13:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't condone murder, and even though I support the cause of Turkish Cypriot recognition, it was an action that should not have occured. Still, what would any nationalist Greek do to a Turk who tries to climb a flagpole in order to tear down a Greek flag? I don't think it would be waving a finger and going "tsk-tsk". That action of Solomou's was foolhardy and it cost him his life. Expatkiwi

When you equate the murderers with the demonstration organisers and the UN, it's hard not to assume that you condone murder, or at least their murders. In any case, you're not helping the cause of the Turkish Cypriots, who to this day have been unable to shake off the perception that they built their "state" over the dead bodies of Greek Cypriots. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 01:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's see, I challenge you to find one occurence of cold-blooded murder of a Turkish Cypriot from Greek-Cypriots. This simply cannot happen, because it's beyond their frame of mind. --   Avg    19:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Ayvasil, Murataga, Atlilar, Taskent. Those village names ring any bells? Expatkiwi

Hello, it's 2007, can you find something in say the last 40 years? Or should I start mentioning 1922, 1955 and 1974 then?--   Avg    22:06, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

You didn't mention dates, matey. Besides, why do the liquidation of those villages have so little importance in your mind? Expatkiwi

It is still my belief Solomou and Isaac should be merged into an article on the demonstrations. Neither figure was notable before their death, it is the circumstance they died in which is imo a more encyclopedic subject. --A.Garnet 23:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I think it depends on whether a suitable title can be agreed on. For example I doubt you'd accept Freelance murders of Greek Cypriots by Turkish mobs in 1996. No Greek users would accept something like Deaths by natural causes with Turkish influence of Greek Cypriots in 1996. Thulium 00:19, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Look above for earlier suggestion: 1996 Greek Cypriot demonstrations . Regards, --A.Garnet 01:15, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps we should mention that they "insulted Turkishness", to facilitate the Turkish argument that they got what they deserved. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 01:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Enough cute remarks. If you want to make more of those find a forum. --A.Garnet 02:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

That was the rationale behind their murders, was it not? I distinctly remember Tansu screeching (in Turkish, of course, not for the international media) that she would break the hands of anyone who tried to touch the Turkish flag. I also remember the US State Department reprimanding her for it. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 02:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm still opposing the merger. Now, the question about the brutalities committed between 1963-1966 by both sides is not our subject here. No side is innocent; they both committed atrocities. But if you want to discuss this issue, find a forum somewhere else. In any case, I can't tolerate anybody calling Solomou a fool. If you think that shooting was the recommended reaction of the occupation forces in this case, then I'm really sorry Expatkiwi; it just seems that human life does not matter so much for you.--Yannismarou 07:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Yannismarou, Human life matters to me. Human dignity matters to me. Those qualities are - unfortunately - in short supply on both sides of the Green Line in Cyprus. Those two people should not have been killed (I support the TRNC's quest for recognition, but that doesn't mean that I'm blind), but did those two really have to put themselves in harms way like they did? Deaths are bad, but needless deaths are even worse, and those two deaths were needless - just like all of the other deaths that took place between 1963 and 1974 on that troubled island. Expatkiwi

I don't get it. In your view people don't have the right to personal safety? All this incident highlights in my opinion is the utter incompetence of the Turkish puppet regime and is an indication of its deliberately negligent methods of enforcing public order. As for putting oneself in potential harm's way, I do that every time I use the subway (terrorists could be lurking and I know that). If I get killed or injured by a terrorist attack can it be said "it's not fully the terrorists' fault, it's also my fault for putting myself in potential harm's way"? Thulium 17:39, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a memorial Yannis. This is a memorial to two non-notable people who died as part of a larger conflict. Thousands of people have died in the Cyprus in a whole manner of horrific ways, what makes these two people deserve an article where they are described as "heroes" more than the others? --A.Garnet 17:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I oppose any merge under your proposed title, it's too vague. Thulium 17:39, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I second that. The events of note were their deaths, not the demonstrations themselves. And even if they were unknown before they died, they have since become figures of particular resonance in the Greek consciousness for what they have come to represent. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 17:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Whats seems to be the problem Garnet? Talk to me, ill sort it out for you Aristovoul0s 20:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I see you have changed your mind a little bit, Denktash style... Why is that? Attacking these articles now? Thanks for the feedback. I'm all for working on it. I asked Kekrops for suggestions, all i got from him was a request to revert the article. However now it seems the Greek Cypriot demonstration has been given its own articles so there should be no complaint about this version. --A.Garnet 19:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cypriot_refugees"

Agenda... today? Aristovoul0s 20:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I think you'll find my "agenda" has been relatively consistent throghout i.e. the creation of serious articles which meet encyclopedic standards. These two articles do not, Cypriot refugee did not (until i changed it), Pontian Greek "genocide" does not, and neither do the tens of other articles you've fiddled about with. In fact, if anything has been consistent, its the quantity of shameless rubbish your willing to spread. Regards, --A.Garnet 20:53, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAA Aristovoul0s 21:07, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

How interesting, Aristovoul0s! That type of laughter is exactly the same laughter that was used by EOKA thugs when they were indiscriminately shooting Turkish Cypriots during the intercommunal violence. ~~Expatkiwi 01:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I think you're confusing them with the Turkish invasion force (although it could be the alcoholic Kemal when drunk). Thulium 01:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)