Talk:Solidarity Forever

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[edit] Catholicism?

My understanding is that Chaplin had been raised protestant, that he had encountered both Mennonite protestants and Catholics in prison, and that he had re-converted to protestantism. Jacob Haller 21:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

On your question of the reference for Chaplin's return to the Catholic Church, I will make an effort to obtain his actual article itself (and not just the reference to it) from the Denver Post of Feb. 1957 to see whether it does indeed state what I have asserted. If it does, I'll change the reference directly to that. If it doesn't, and I can't find a credible reference, I'll remove the comment. Dwalls 02:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Chaplin may well have joined the Catholic Church. I doubt, however, that he "returned to" it. The main Ralph Chaplin article doesn't say anything about his religious beliefs, and he was definitely Christian even if I'm not sure which denomination, in his later life, so we might add the material over there as well as over here. Jacob Haller 04:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I've received a copy of the Denver Post magazine articles from the Washington State Historical Society. Although elliptical, it strongly implies Chaplin became a Catholic. His story is described as one of, quoting Chaplin, "a violent atheist turned Christian the hard way." Chaplin writes, "I found myself remembering the Catholic chapel at Leavenworth and the inmates who devoutly raised their eyes to my portrait of 'Fellow Worker Jesus.' . . .Here was the instrument of true solidarity, the real clue to Man's salvation, and the best weapon against totalitarianism." There is no suggestion he was a Catholic when younger, so I withdraw the "returned to." Dwalls 17:49, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Labor theory of value?

The stanza "all that is owned by idle drones is ours and ours alone, we have laid the wide foundations..." doesn't embody the LTV in the economic sense, but uses Locke's justification for property (sometimes called the labor theory of property) to counter the capitalists' property claims, presumably on behalf of Lockeanism, use-possession, or another such system. Jacob Haller 21:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I take your point about the labor theory of property, however I think it is too narrow a concept to cover the claims of the IWW Preamble, and certainly an obscure concept. The labor theory of value is, in my opinion, more the ethical underpinning of the IWW's claim that "all the world that is owned by idle drones is ours and ours alone." And the labor theory of value is usually understood in a broader sense (by those who still take it seriously, in the face of mainstream economics' marginal utility theory). Dwalls 02:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the LTP as described in the page is too narrow. However, the LTV is a theory of economics (usually about commodity prices) while the LTP is a theory about rights and/or justice, as is that part of the song.

In my reading, "All that is owned..." challenges the legitimacy of capitalist property-claims on more-or-less Lockean lines; "They have taken untold millions..." introduces the theory of exploitation, and it and the following stanza explore the LTV and its implications of the LTV in Wobbly, syndicalist, and some other libsoc interpretations. Jacob Haller 04:24, 5 September 2007 (UTC)