Talk:Solar system/Archive 7

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

This article within the scope of the WikiProjects Systems

Hi, I have put this article under the scope of the WikiProject Systems because of the formal relation, but more because of the inspiring and motivating example this article can give our project and it's participants (to come). We are still a small and beginning group, and working to get our own toko going. In due time I hope we can also deliver a valuable contributions here from our point of view. In the mean time I wish all of you all te best. Best regards - Mdd 21:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Definition of north and south

We should explain how north and south are defined for other objects than earth. I assume it is defined as the same direction as earths north pole. Are the rotational axes of all planets parallel? --Apoc2400 01:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Kinda. The only planets that could be said to be upside down are Venus (which rotates from left to right instead of right to left) and Uranus (which, depending on your point of view, is either 82 degrees tilted and rotating right to left, or 98 degrees tilted and rotating left to right. Serendipodous 13:27, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

So, is north and south for a planet defined from the planets orbit around the sun, or as parallel to earth? Which was does north point for Venus? --Apoc2400 07:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it (keep in mind that I'm not a scientist) "north" is based on what we call "north" on Earth. In space, there is no "up" or "down", so theoretically an alien visiting us could come at us from "below" and thus conclude that north was south and south was north. North and south are completely arbitrary concepts anyway, and are based more on the prejudices of cartographers than anything else. There's no real reason why maps can't be upside down; they just aren't. If, say, the Maori had been the culture to colonise the globe, then North and south could very well have been opposite. Serendipodous 12:31, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The cartographers that have given us the reversed map ? --68.0.124.33 (talk) 21:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

There are varying definitions of "north"; see North_Pole#Defining_North_Poles_in_astronomy. --P3d0 13:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

This content has since been moved to Poles of astronomical bodies. -- Beland (talk) 22:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Is there some way

to upload this video onto Wikipedia? I think it's better than the sequence of still images we now have. Serendipodous 15:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

"Future" section

This was added a short while ago:

The sun will stay in main sequence for about another 3 billion years. Eventually when it reach giant star it is expect to almost reach Earth's orbit. However the current research shows, the loss of the sun's gravity, mass, and probably atmosphere will cause all the planets to move further from the sun. Although Mercury is likely to escape to higher orbit, but it can definitely not escape from being engulfed by the sun because it can still expand large enough, the remaining gravity can still drag the planet down and still swallow it up in 5 billion year's time. In about 7 billion years from now the sun is expected to reach 110 times its current diameter. The Earth and even Venus will be able to escape to higher orbit to escape from being enveloped by sun. Venus is expected to reach 1.1 AU which will travel slightly beyond the current orbitof the Earth, while the Earth will escape to 1.4 AU which is almost as big as the current orbit of Mars. However all the oceans on Earth will boil up and its atmosphere will be stripped away.

... Anyone want to take a crack at reworking it, or is it too specific for this article? Thoughts? --Ckatz^chat_spy 23:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Not necessary; the future of the Solar System was broken off this article over a year ago and is now at Formation and evolution of the Solar System#Future Serendipodous 17:14, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• Actually few informations is wring in 5.5 billion years sun will swell up to 100 times its current diameter. Earth will move out to 1.55 AU, and Venus will move out to 1.1 AU. sun suppose to stay in main sequence for about another 2.5 Gyrs. in 5.5 Gyrs sun will become RGB. Mercury will just stay in the same orbit the whole time and get destroyed, disintegrate, engulfed and destroy its magnetic field is too low for the planet to escape to higher orbit. Mercury will be swallowed up before the sun enters the RGB, almost after the Earth undergoes similar surface conditon as Venus. --Freewayguy--Comm 90 00:40, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I came here looking for information on the future of the Solar system (including information about the stability of the planets' orbits), and when I couldn't find it, I came to the Talk page to ask someone to add it. We should at least have a brief summary section with a pointer to the main article. --P3d0 (talk) 18:43, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

OK. Revised the formation section. Bit truncated and choppy, but I think all the absolutely necessary info is there. Serendi^podous 20:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Definition of a planet???

Here's some food for thought... According to the definition of a planet in this article, six of the existing planets should not be considered planets. Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune have not cleared their path! There are still objects orbiting around them and, inadvertedly, block the way for such a body to clear through. Am I right? Shouldn't they be as Mercury and Venus with nothing in their way?

Of all the wacky things I have heard about the Solar Sytem, I have never heard such a thing that would disclude our own home as a planet. Until now, that is.

If anyone agrees with me, please note so.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Son of the right hand (talk • contribs) 21:13, 22 June 2007

Please read What is a Planet? by Steven Soter from the January 2007 issue of Scientific American. It's quite well done and made a believer out of me.  :) Oh, and please sign your posts with ~~~~ Thanks. --EarthPerson 21:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't beleive that there is any objects in the way of any of the planets, exept for pluto, of course, my grade 8 science and technologies teacher told me so, if there were things in the way of our orbit, we would be considered a dwarf planet! androo123 16:56, 14 September 2007 (EDT)

About the planets?

I don't agree with this revert. Who says that section is only about the planets? I think we should reinstate the text. --P3d0 20:05, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The section read (and currently reads) as follows:

"The five closest planets to Earth – Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn – are amongst the brightest objects in the night sky and were called "πλανήτης" (planētēs, meaning "wanderer") by the Ancient Greeks. They were known to move across the fixed stars; this is the origin of the word "planet". Uranus is also visible without optical aid at its brightest, but it is at the very limit of naked-eye detectability and therefore evaded discovery until 1781."

The change added notes about Vesta, Saturn's moons, and the invention of the telescope - all interesting, but it bulks up what was a clear and succinct paragraph. --Ckatz^chat_spy 20:48, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

This page should be semi-protected

I'm not sure if this is a valid measure of vandal attraction, but once the first fifty edits in the history section consist entirely of reverted vandalism, I think it's time to put a lock on it. Serendipodous 07:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I don't know. The vandalism isn't overwhelming (~2 or 3 edits per day, all quickly reverted), and that "semi-protected" tag is kind of ugly. Gnixon 16:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Definition of the Solar System

I find it irritating that the Solar System is defined in the opening sentence by its contents. It is given no context of location or significance; there are billions of other star systems in existance, why is this one special? If you look at the articles of the planets, they say 'this is a planet in the Solar System', and when you look at this article, it says 'the Solar System contains these planets'. It's like saying 'black is the opposite of white' and 'white is the opposite of black', it's a comparitive definition that makes no sense to people unfamiliar with the concepts referred to. --84.64.77.228 02:28, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Our Solar System isn't special. It's just the star system we happen to be in. Is saying "Venus is a planet in the solar system" and "The solar system contains the planet Venus" any different from saying that "The lung is an organ in the vertebrate body" and "The vertebrate body contains lungs?" Serendipodous 07:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's different. The latter statements imply that the lung is an organ in every vertebrate body. The former implies that there is only one solar system. --P3d0 04:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

There is only one Solar System. The Solar System is the star Sol and its planetary system, hence the capital letters. Believe me I've gone through this many times in the past. The problem of definition arises because, oddly enough, there is no commonly accepted generic term for stars plus planetary systems. You'd think after ten years of extrasolar planet discovery they would have worked it out by now, but they haven't. Serendipodous 06:48, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, that answers my question. Shouldn't this be explained in the article?

Not sure how. It's impossible to prove a negative, so I can't see how we could say that there is no official generic term for "solar system" unless we found a source explicitly saying so. Thing is, no source I've ever found has ever said that. Serendi^podous 21:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

How better can one define the Solar System than to say that it is this collection of astronomical bodies orbiting that particular star? There is nothing special about the region of space we currently occupy (fringe theories about the aether, geocentrism etc. aside), nor about our coordinates relative to the galaxy or universe as a whole. Description (of our position or whatever) is not definition. Sheffield Steel^talkers_stalkers 17:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC):

Isn't the generic term for a star plus planetary system "Star System?"

This article's main image is a bit out of date

It gives the impression that Pluto is a major planet. Perhaps someone could photoshop the Kuiper belt into the last orbit? Serendi^podous 18:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I seem to recall there being a version of that image where Pluto had been airbrushed out, which struck me as being somewhat reminiscent of Stalin-era photos of Kremlin staff (you know the sort of thing: Foobarov is out of favour, so we must remove him from the official history). Maybe that image is still on the servers? Sheffield Steel^talkers_stalkers 17:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. If the image should be planets only, then pluto should not be present. If dwarf planets are considered significant, then ceres, sedna, and all the other known ones should be included. As is, the image is self-contradictory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.230.161.164 (talk) 04:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Factual Errors

The picture of the Solar system on the bottom includes Eris, Pluto, and ceres, even though it shouldn't. They were designated as not planets, but dwarf plnaets and what happens to Wikipedia when later we find much more dwarf planets? Keep adding them? I mean, dwarf plnaets, I suppose, are much samller and thus easier to be made and thus there would be an abundance of them. The picture should take the dwarf plnaets out.—Preceding unsigned comment added by PRhyu (talk • contribs)

That image was provided by the IAU upon reaching their decision last year. Planets are listed on the top, dwarf planets on the bottom. Should they add new dwarf planets, which probably won't be until 2009, then doubtless they will release a new image to illustrate it. When they do, we'll swap it out. Serendi^podous 07:33, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

converting metrics in scientific articles

I'm seeking consensus at MOSNUM talk for a change in the wording to allow contributors, by consensus only, to use unconverted metrics in scientific articles. Your opinions are invited. Tony 15:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Renaming the article to Solar system

It seems to me that this article should be renamed from Solar System to Solar system. It seems common in all direct related articles like for example:

• Copernican system
• Dynamical system
• Manticore system
• Photometric system
• Planetary system
• Ptolemaic system
• Star system
• Tychonic system

It seems that you only keep use capitals in a article title if it really an own name. But I'm not expert in Wikipedia rules & conventions. What do you think? - Mdd 22:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't have an opinion, but I think perhaps the rationale is that a "solar system" is any system orbiting a star, while the "Solar System" is the proper name for the solar system that we inhabit. --P3d0 22:35, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I didn't think of that. - Mdd 22:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Definition of solar system

It should be mentioned that solar system can also refer to all other star systems, and generally does, at least in American English. In American English, our solar system is almost always refered to as our solar system or the solar system. Notice the our and the.

Webster's definition of sun: "1. a) the self-luminous, gaseous sphere about which the earth and other planets revolve and which furnishes light, heat, and energy for the solar system: it is the star nearest the earth, whose mean distance from it is nearly 93,000,000 miles: its diameter is about 864,000 miles; its mass is about 333,400 times, and its volume more than 1,300,000 times, that of the earth  b) the heat or light of the sun [to lie in the sun]  2. any star that is the center of a planetary system  3. something like the sun, as in warmth, brilliance, splendor, etc.  4. [Poet.]  a) a day  b) a year  5. [Poet.] a clime; climate  6. [Archaic] sunrise or sunset."

Notice especially the definition of the sun under 2. The definition of sun is ambiguous, like a lot of the English language, and should be mentioned in the sun and solar system articles. Excluding that information is an example of Wikipedia's bias.

Also look at the Merriam-Webster Online definition for solar system: "the sun together with the group of celestial bodies that are held by its attraction and revolve around it; also : a similar system centered on another star." These sources are much more reliable than Wikipedia, an encyclopedia that anyone can contribute to.

Dictionaries don't employ official definitions; they draw citations from any and all printed works, not just scientific ones. The distinction between "the Solar System" and "a solar system" is one that is employed frequently in popular culture, but it is not one that has been officially accepted by astronomers. Yet. Serendi^podous 05:35, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Pluto

Pluto should still be a planet!! It is a dwarf planet and orbits around the sun! Why is it classified as an asteroid?! (and please please please dont delete this article!) --70.110.4.132 22:17, 8 October 2007 (UTC)Plutsave

It's not classified as an asteroid, but as a dwarf planet. Ben Hocking ^{(talk|contribs)} 22:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Terminology

Could someone explain something to me that I have not been able to immediately figure out on my own after quick review of several articles. Is our solar system a galaxy? or are there several solar systems in a galaxy? Does the word "solar system" refer only to OUR solar system? If not, what is the name of our solar system? and what is the name of our galaxy? and what is the milky way? a series of galaxies that we can see from Earth?

Thanks. dearly 02:25, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The solar system is not a galaxy. A galaxy is a gravitational union of a hundred billion stars. The Solar System is one star and the planets around it. Our Solar System is one star in the Milky Way galaxy, which probably contains a hundred billion other similar systems. The Solar System (with capital letters) is the name of the star system we live in. Some people use the term "solar system" (no capital letters) to describe other such systems, but that isn't official. Serendi^podous 06:42, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

New Image

This new Image might be useful.--Nemissimo 16:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Planet Orbits

I was looking for an article or image that explains planet orbits. Preferably approximate scale image for inner planets, showing ellipses and sun position? is there one in wikipedia, or should there be one? -- 16:32, 11 November 2007

Well, there's this. Not sure what you want. Do you want distances? There's an old image from this page that I took down because it swamped the text. You can see it here Serendi^podous 21:45, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

thanks. what i had in mind is the fact that planet orbits are not circular but more of the ellipse (as keppler told us), yet its hard to see on images of large scales. on all images they look very circular. for example in December Earth is closer to sun that in June. yet i couldn't find a wikipedia diagram that shows that. thanks -- 17:01, 12 November 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.106.237.2 (talk)

Link to Hindi version

...would be nice if someone could add the link to the excellent Hindi version of the article - thanks? Watasenia (talk) 15:51, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

If you provide a URL, I'll provide the link. My Hindi is rather limited… Ben Hocking ^{(talk|contribs)} 16:11, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Photos of the sun

As an earlier attempt at commenting was reverted (probably mistook as vandalism even though the comments were hidden from normal view), here's another go:

Is the shot (probably taken by a compact digital camera) in current form truly encyclopedical? Consider Image:The sun1.jpg (which is currently used) and the previous Image:The Sun.jpg. What do they show? A burnt out highlight, some blue sky and lens flare. In comparison, perhaps these do not quite fit in? As the article history only goes back to April 20 2007 I can't determine if they were included in the version that underwent the FA process. Cheers, 88.148.207.23 12:07, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

They were. Or at least earlier versions of them. Serendi^podous 13:04, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Sol System

Isn't that like the name most people use in fiction when we found other star systems i can try to find references but i doubt it --24.107.202.65 (talk) 22:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Some scifi books have used it, most notably the Foundation series, but it's not used much in reality. Serendi^podous 00:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Header: Greco-Roman mythology references

Either referring to the Greco-Roman mythological origins of various planetary designations is inappropriate in the header, or including the Greco-Roman mythological names for Earth alongside the other planetary designations is necessary to fairly present information on the subject. I've tried both options to no avail. Discuss. Adraeus (talk) 22:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand what your problem is. This is the English Wikipedia. In the English language, all the planets save Earth are named for Graeco-Roman mythic figures. English hardly ever uses "Terra", except in science fiction, and rarely even then (not to mention the fact that "Terra" isn't a god). Gaia is irrelevant save in reference to the Gaia hypothesis. Serendi^podous 22:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Gaia and Terra are both Greco-Roman mythological names for Earth, which only became the name for this planet in circa 1400. The Gaia in the Gaia hypothesis isn't a factor here. As for Terra not being a god, what are you, blind? Adraeus (talk) 23:00, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe, mythologically speaking, Tellus is the more common term. I still don't understand what you're talking about. The Earth wasn't even recognised as a planet in 1400. This article states a simple fact; the planets are named after Greek and Roman gods, except Earth. Your claim that it is irrelevant is preposterous. The origins of the names of the planets are perfectly relevant to the article. Serendi^podous 23:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

From the Oxford English Dictionary:

10. a. Considered as a sphere, orb, or planet.

• c1400 Rom. Rose 5339 Erthe, that bitwixe is sett The sonne and hir [the moon].
• 1555 EDEN Decades W. Ind. Cont. (Arb.) 45 A demonstration of the roundenesse of the earth.
• 1658 CULPEPPER Astrol. Judgem. Dis. 18 The Earth is a great lump of dirt rolled up together, and hanged in the Air.
• 1726 tr. Gregory's Astron. I. 403 The Place of the Aphelion or Perihelion of the Earth.
• 1796 H. HUNTER tr. St. Pierre's Stud. Nat. (1799) I. Introd. 32 The Earth is lengthened out at the Poles.
• 1854 BREWSTER More Worlds Introd. 2 The earth is a planet.

Nevermind the Online Etymology Dictionary. [1]

I also never said that the origins of the names of the planets are irrelevant to the article. I said that they were irrelevant to the header of the article unless their reference was made complete with a reference to Earth's Greco-Roman mythological names. Adraeus (talk) 23:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how you can't possibly comprehend that identifying the Greco-Roman names for what is now called Earth alongside planetary designations, whose historical names were retained, does not complement the information and presentation of the information in the header. Adraeus (talk) 23:20, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

A planet is a wandering star. By definition, it moves. Even after 1543, when Copernicus first proposed the idea that the Earth might be moving, it was at least a century before the Earth was considered a planet. A sphere, yes. Not a planet. But again, what is the issue here? This is the English Wikipedia, not the Latin or Greek Wikipedia. That sentence describes the name origins of the planets in the English language. The other planets are named after Greek and Roman gods, and Earth isn't. "Terra" and "Gaia" are hardly ever used in English, and never were common (Greek didn't become widely understood in the English-speaking world until the 1500s) and therefore are not notable enough for inclusion. Serendi^podous 23:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

People perceive reality in their language. Their "sphere" was our "planet." (By the way, stop telling me this is the English Wikipedia. I've been a major contributor to the English Wikipedia for years. I don't care for your insults.)

The issue is that Mercury, Mars, Uranus, etc., are Greco-Roman names for planets, once considered spheres, too. Gaia and Terra are Greco-Roman names for what we call Earth. They might not be commonly used anymore, but they remain a significant part of history and are relevant alongside other Greco-Roman names. Don't be a revisionist. Adraeus (talk) 23:32, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Believe me, there is a big difference between "sphere" and "planet" in geocentric cosmology. Earth was a sphere, but it was not a planet. Early astronomers were very familiar with both words, and never once considered Earth a planet. And how is not including the fact that Earth was very occasionally referred to by its Greek/Roman name in English "revisionist"? Neither the Greeks nor the Romans ever considered Earth a planet. Why is it even relevant, let alone necessary? Serendi^podous 23:49, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

(resetting indent)Adraeus, I think you're overlooking the fact that this article is intended to be an overview of the Solar System as a whole. The information you're adding is, in that context, not relevant here. Moreover, it is already mentioned in Earth (in the lead sentence), which is the more appropriate place for details. There are many, many, many details that have had to be trimmed simply to keep the article to a manageable length. --Ckatz^chat_spy 00:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)